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I agree "ensuring everyone has ID" is a separate problem that we should absolutely trying to tackle. We are already seeing people struggle with it absent any ne

I agree "ensuring everyone has ID" is a separate problem that we should absolutely trying to tackle. We are already seeing people struggle with it absent any new ID schemes, eg in the case of trying to get access to banking. You can already get ID at a post office, maybe we should add other government facilities such as libraries.

JoshTriplett 1y ago
That's absolutely true, and orthogonal to the problem that you shouldn't need to identify yourself to anyone in order to access arbitrary websites.
- Seattle3503 1y ago
  I don't think thats the proposal. The proposal is that you prove to websites that you are over 18 to see adult content.
  - JoshTriplett 1y ago
    "adult content" is the boogeyman, to try to make this harder to argue against. The actual net result is shutting down a wide variety of websites and making people identify themselves (to paid identity providers conveniently provided by those who lobbied for this legislation) in order to access others, including Reddit, Discord, etc. You should not need to identify yourself to access arbitrary websites, either to the website or to some third party.
    - Seattle3503 1y ago
      I agree, you shouldn't need to identify yourself. Protocols like mobile drivers license (and others) allow you to do selective disclosure of properties such as "over 18", without disclosing any other personal identifiers. That seems like reasonable compromise.
      - JoshTriplett 1y ago
        Feel free to do that if you wish. Don't force it on everyone else. No "compromise" is needed here. Would be interested to hear whether you've evaluated the regulatory capture angle here, of paid services being pushed by the same people who forced the legislation down everyone's throats.
        Seattle3503 1y ago
        I touched on this in another comment. We are already doing age verification today, and poorly. > There is a lot of this going on in this thread and frankly it is quite frustrating. Texas and France are two jurisdictions I know implemented privacy laws and now porn websites are collecting PII. I know this because when I traveled to Europe, my account on an adult website (gasp, yes I admit to having one) started asking me for ID. When I tried to proceed through verification with their chosen third party the flow requested a video of my face. Yuck. When I got back the US, it was still requesting face verification. I talked to support and, basically, once I used a French SIM card it "blew a verification fuse" and the only way to get my account back was to send that video of my face. I found this unacceptable, so I abandoned my account. > If we refuse to find a workable solution that respects privacy and is based in open standards, we are going to cede this space to private third party companies. When we deny the government a role, we cede this territory to private companies that are accountable to no one but their shareholders. I'd rather develop ID standards that protect privacy while providing access.
        JoshTriplett 1y ago
        > I touched on this in another comment. We are already doing age verification today, and poorly. Yes, and we should fight that vigorously and make it stop, not make it "better". > I talked to support and, basically, once I used a French SIM card it "blew a verification fuse" and the only way to get my account back was to send that video of my face. I found this unacceptable, so I abandoned my account. Helpful data, thank you. Note to self: don't browse the web at all in draconian countries without a VPN, not even once. > When we deny the government a role, we cede this territory to private companies that are accountable to no one but their shareholders. I'd rather develop ID standards that protect privacy while providing access. So if we're going to lose, we should try to make it hurt less? That's a strategy for when one has given up on winning.
sltkr 1y ago
The “not everyone has an ID!” argument is such an American perspective. The vast majority of world citizens live in countries that require you to have some form of government ID anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country#/media/File:National_ID_card_policy.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... It seems pretty reasonable to leverage this into online identification. In fact, online ID is already used in the European Union for popular initiatives (see, e.g., https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ ) and nobody seems to think this is “bullshit” or infeasible or any of the concerns that are lobbed at the age verification requirements.
- lmz 1y ago
  It's more accurately a very Anglo perspective. The US, UK, AU, NZ, CA all do not have national ID cards.
  - LtWorf 1y ago
    Sweden has them but very few people actually have one. They all use a card issued by the tax office that is not valid in the rest of EU.
- BlueTemplar 1y ago
  Only in part of EU as you can see, and we will hopefully be able to push back against this too. And it isn't mandatory for these initiatives.

JoshTriplett 1y ago

That's absolutely true, and orthogonal to the problem that you shouldn't need to identify yourself to anyone in order to access arbitrary websites.

Seattle3503 1y ago
I don't think thats the proposal. The proposal is that you prove to websites that you are over 18 to see adult content.
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  "adult content" is the boogeyman, to try to make this harder to argue against. The actual net result is shutting down a wide variety of websites and making people identify themselves (to paid identity providers conveniently provided by those who lobbied for this legislation) in order to access others, including Reddit, Discord, etc. You should not need to identify yourself to access arbitrary websites, either to the website or to some third party.
  - Seattle3503 1y ago
    I agree, you shouldn't need to identify yourself. Protocols like mobile drivers license (and others) allow you to do selective disclosure of properties such as "over 18", without disclosing any other personal identifiers. That seems like reasonable compromise.
    - JoshTriplett 1y ago
      Feel free to do that if you wish. Don't force it on everyone else. No "compromise" is needed here. Would be interested to hear whether you've evaluated the regulatory capture angle here, of paid services being pushed by the same people who forced the legislation down everyone's throats.
      - Seattle3503 1y ago
        I touched on this in another comment. We are already doing age verification today, and poorly. > There is a lot of this going on in this thread and frankly it is quite frustrating. Texas and France are two jurisdictions I know implemented privacy laws and now porn websites are collecting PII. I know this because when I traveled to Europe, my account on an adult website (gasp, yes I admit to having one) started asking me for ID. When I tried to proceed through verification with their chosen third party the flow requested a video of my face. Yuck. When I got back the US, it was still requesting face verification. I talked to support and, basically, once I used a French SIM card it "blew a verification fuse" and the only way to get my account back was to send that video of my face. I found this unacceptable, so I abandoned my account. > If we refuse to find a workable solution that respects privacy and is based in open standards, we are going to cede this space to private third party companies. When we deny the government a role, we cede this territory to private companies that are accountable to no one but their shareholders. I'd rather develop ID standards that protect privacy while providing access.
        JoshTriplett 1y ago
        > I touched on this in another comment. We are already doing age verification today, and poorly. Yes, and we should fight that vigorously and make it stop, not make it "better". > I talked to support and, basically, once I used a French SIM card it "blew a verification fuse" and the only way to get my account back was to send that video of my face. I found this unacceptable, so I abandoned my account. Helpful data, thank you. Note to self: don't browse the web at all in draconian countries without a VPN, not even once. > When we deny the government a role, we cede this territory to private companies that are accountable to no one but their shareholders. I'd rather develop ID standards that protect privacy while providing access. So if we're going to lose, we should try to make it hurt less? That's a strategy for when one has given up on winning.

sltkr 1y ago

The “not everyone has an ID!” argument is such an American perspective. The vast majority of world citizens live in countries that require you to have some form of government ID anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country#/media/File:National_ID_card_policy.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... It seems pretty reasonable to leverage this into online identification. In fact, online ID is already used in the European Union for popular initiatives (see, e.g., https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ ) and nobody seems to think this is “bullshit” or infeasible or any of the concerns that are lobbed at the age verification requirements.

lmz 1y ago
It's more accurately a very Anglo perspective. The US, UK, AU, NZ, CA all do not have national ID cards.
- LtWorf 1y ago
  Sweden has them but very few people actually have one. They all use a card issued by the tax office that is not valid in the rest of EU.
BlueTemplar 1y ago
Only in part of EU as you can see, and we will hopefully be able to push back against this too. And it isn't mandatory for these initiatives.