7 ms·

I don't think the bible is in public school libraries -- if it is (as historical literature), it's probably unconstitutional to teach from it or promote it.

jjallen 1y ago
The Ten Commandments are required to be posted on every public school wall in Texas. You would have guessed that that is also unconstitutional
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  They are deemed to be secular, like Christmas.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    The ten commandments are definitely not secular, but it is funny how up until the 1950s christmas was deemed a pagan religious holiday and was even listed this way in encyclopedias from that time. Then suddenly, it was listed as a christian holiday, except there is no reference about it in the bible with new testament references specifying to not keep that holiday. How these can be deemed the same is beyond rational thinking.
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      > but it is funny how up until the 1950s christmas was deemed a pagan religious holiday and was even listed this way in encyclopedias from that time Deemed by whom and in what encyclopedias? There are certainly religious groups who are historically recent offshoots of Western Christianity that viewed it that way in the 1950s, but the same groups do so today, nothing substantial has changed on that front since the 1950s. For the rest of Christianity, well, it was adopted as a Christian feast in the 4th century and has been treated as one since pretty consistently by most of Christianity. Certainly so in the largest branches of Christian in the US in the 1950s, which constituted between them the great majority of the population.
      - dylan604 1y ago
        I had a copy of Britannica from the 50s that had this. It was picked up in one of those Books By The Yard for cheap.
    - yencabulator 1y ago
      Christian leaders realized they're losing a fight against folk traditions and went into damage control mode. Other "Christian" special dates were similarly specifically picked to match an older special date.
  - Levitz 1y ago
    What's the secular reading of "You shall have no other gods before me" ? What? I can understand that Christmas has mutated into a family reunion, a time for gathering with loved ones etc, even Santa Claus, name and all, has turned into the figure that brings presents, but even if I can understand "You shall not murder" as a secular rule, the ten commandments as a whole are really hard to take as such no?
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      They are common to all Abrahamic religions, in spirit if not word-for-word. Hinduism also has its 5 principles and 10 disciplines which are broadly similar. Perhaps "secular" is not the best description, but for anyone faithful to any of the major religions, these are going to be broadly shared principles, in addition to being the basis for most of our laws and social norms regarding individual behavior (don't kill, don't steal, etc.) It's kind of like having "In God We Trust" printed on our currency. It's not a specific (i.e. Christian) God, at least that is the justification, and it's not seen as "respecting an establishment of religion" in the Constitutional sense.
      - yencabulator 1y ago
        Even if you can find multiple religions that you claim agree on something that does *not* make that thing secular. > Secularity [...] is the state of being unrelated to, or neutral in regard to, religion.
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    This is one of the stupidest things I've read all year, and I fear that we're still only in August. I really have no words. They're by definition a set of religious directives from a claimed god.
epistasis 1y ago
The Bible is commonly in public schools, as are other religious books. Having a book available does not mean promoting it or establishing it as a religion.
jameshart 1y ago
I would be shocked if any library didn’t have bibles in its collection. It’s crucial reference material.
linotype 1y ago
> it's probably unconstitutional to teach from it or promote it https://oklahoma.gov/education/newsroom/2025/march/despite-controversy-oklahoma-becomes-the-first-state-to-initiate-bibles-back-in-school-campaign.html https://oklahoma.gov/education/newsroom/2025/march/despite-c... The Constitution only applies if there are people able and willing to enforce it.
- jwally 1y ago
  This is the key to everything in the US right now I feel. Laws exist, but they're not being enforced or are difficult to enforce legally. This lets people at the top do whatever now since the eventual consequences (if any) are way out in the future and punitive to the gains they get now. Its like being a bank robber with a Ferrari when the cops are stuck using horse-and-buggies.
  - komali2 1y ago
    > This is the key to everything in the US right now I feel. Laws exist, but they're not being enforced or are difficult to enforce legally. My hope is that this situation wakes Americans up to the fact that laws were always this way. I'm hoping this breaks the myth of the law as a fair arbiter of justice. In reality the legal system of the USA is enforced at the whim of incredibly biased cops, judges, and politicians. I really think a day in a county courthouse should be a requirement for all American kids so they can see just how arbitrarily sentencing is applied or how whether someone ends up in trial at all can hinge on whether a judge agrees or disagrees there was probable cause, and the judge will do like 20 of these hearings one after another. Not to mention the fact that any black American can tell you that there's two justice systems in the USA: the one for white people, and the one for everyone else. Hence why so many black kids can tell you about when their parents gave them "The Talk," and no, it's not the birds and bees one, it's the one about how your white friends can get up to mischief that you can't and there's nothing you can do about it so don't bother getting mad about it, just keep your head down and never backtalk the cops.
    - chrisco255 1y ago
bryanlarsen 1y ago
The bible is a crucial piece of literature reference. Pretty much every literary piece written before the middle of the 20th century assumed that their reader was also intimately familiar with the bible. For example, a writer could call a woman a "Jezebel" without any expository context, assuming that the reader would know what that meant. Thus the bible should be in every high school and higher education library.
- graemep 1y ago
  It should be commonly taught as a work of literature. Ideally the KJV which has largely fallen out of favour (except with certain groups) as a religious translation because more recent translations are so much better (advances in scholarship, more discoveries of early manuscripts...) but which is beautiful as a work.
  - gorgoiler 1y ago
    It’s a sign of the times that the powers that be might make KJV, a labour of love and the apple of the author’s eye, come forth to fight the good fight and rake in some filthy lucre! By the skin of their teeth, these wolves in sheep’s clothing’s days must be numbered, but if they keep on the straight and narrow, live by the sword, and go the extra mile, then lo and behold the first shall be last and every salt of the earth will be made a scapegoat from here to the ends of the earth! after KJV, possibly with thanks to Bill (Shakespeare) also.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  any Western literary piece. for translated novels from China you might want some other foundational texts on hand, or the Quran to complement Persian literature, or etc But I don't see any reason a library can't have various books from antiquity, for reference at least. Probably multiple editions or translations of each too.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  TIL "Jezebel" is a reference to the bible. Without the bible, people still have dictionaries if they don't understand words or references. Or they could use Google. I don't see why some books would be "too crucial" not to ban in a law banning books intended to protect kids. If anything, I find it easier to defend a ban on religious books in (public) schools.
asadotzler 1y ago
You thought wrong. Visit a library sometime to see otherwise. Various Bibles can be found in many public libraries.
jccalhoun 1y ago
It was totally in my library when I was in high school in the late 80s but I was in a small school in the midwest.
projektfu 1y ago
My public school library had several Bible versions, a couple Quran versions, and probably some Buddhist and Hindu texts of interest, though I didn't look for them. Why shouldn't they have these in the library?
dylan604 1y ago
You mean like the new Texas state law going into effect Sept 1 that says each class room must display the ten commandments and specifies the minimum size of the display would be unconstitutional. Also, unconstitutional by what definition? I'm guessing the current SCOTUS would not agree with your assessment.
zeroonetwothree 1y ago
Surely not, while it would be unconstitutional to present it as the correct religious view it is totally fine to teach it as part of a general literary overview. It’s been far too important to Western literature to omit entirely.

jjallen 1y ago

The Ten Commandments are required to be posted on every public school wall in Texas. You would have guessed that that is also unconstitutional

SoftTalker 1y ago
They are deemed to be secular, like Christmas.
- dylan604 1y ago
  The ten commandments are definitely not secular, but it is funny how up until the 1950s christmas was deemed a pagan religious holiday and was even listed this way in encyclopedias from that time. Then suddenly, it was listed as a christian holiday, except there is no reference about it in the bible with new testament references specifying to not keep that holiday. How these can be deemed the same is beyond rational thinking.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > but it is funny how up until the 1950s christmas was deemed a pagan religious holiday and was even listed this way in encyclopedias from that time Deemed by whom and in what encyclopedias? There are certainly religious groups who are historically recent offshoots of Western Christianity that viewed it that way in the 1950s, but the same groups do so today, nothing substantial has changed on that front since the 1950s. For the rest of Christianity, well, it was adopted as a Christian feast in the 4th century and has been treated as one since pretty consistently by most of Christianity. Certainly so in the largest branches of Christian in the US in the 1950s, which constituted between them the great majority of the population.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      I had a copy of Britannica from the 50s that had this. It was picked up in one of those Books By The Yard for cheap.
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    Christian leaders realized they're losing a fight against folk traditions and went into damage control mode. Other "Christian" special dates were similarly specifically picked to match an older special date.
- Levitz 1y ago
  What's the secular reading of "You shall have no other gods before me" ? What? I can understand that Christmas has mutated into a family reunion, a time for gathering with loved ones etc, even Santa Claus, name and all, has turned into the figure that brings presents, but even if I can understand "You shall not murder" as a secular rule, the ten commandments as a whole are really hard to take as such no?
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    They are common to all Abrahamic religions, in spirit if not word-for-word. Hinduism also has its 5 principles and 10 disciplines which are broadly similar. Perhaps "secular" is not the best description, but for anyone faithful to any of the major religions, these are going to be broadly shared principles, in addition to being the basis for most of our laws and social norms regarding individual behavior (don't kill, don't steal, etc.) It's kind of like having "In God We Trust" printed on our currency. It's not a specific (i.e. Christian) God, at least that is the justification, and it's not seen as "respecting an establishment of religion" in the Constitutional sense.
    - yencabulator 1y ago
      Even if you can find multiple religions that you claim agree on something that does *not* make that thing secular. > Secularity [...] is the state of being unrelated to, or neutral in regard to, religion.
- yencabulator 1y ago
  This is one of the stupidest things I've read all year, and I fear that we're still only in August. I really have no words. They're by definition a set of religious directives from a claimed god.

epistasis 1y ago

The Bible is commonly in public schools, as are other religious books. Having a book available does not mean promoting it or establishing it as a religion.

jameshart 1y ago

I would be shocked if any library didn’t have bibles in its collection. It’s crucial reference material.

linotype 1y ago

> it's probably unconstitutional to teach from it or promote it https://oklahoma.gov/education/newsroom/2025/march/despite-controversy-oklahoma-becomes-the-first-state-to-initiate-bibles-back-in-school-campaign.html https://oklahoma.gov/education/newsroom/2025/march/despite-c... The Constitution only applies if there are people able and willing to enforce it.

jwally 1y ago
This is the key to everything in the US right now I feel. Laws exist, but they're not being enforced or are difficult to enforce legally. This lets people at the top do whatever now since the eventual consequences (if any) are way out in the future and punitive to the gains they get now. Its like being a bank robber with a Ferrari when the cops are stuck using horse-and-buggies.
- komali2 1y ago
  > This is the key to everything in the US right now I feel. Laws exist, but they're not being enforced or are difficult to enforce legally. My hope is that this situation wakes Americans up to the fact that laws were always this way. I'm hoping this breaks the myth of the law as a fair arbiter of justice. In reality the legal system of the USA is enforced at the whim of incredibly biased cops, judges, and politicians. I really think a day in a county courthouse should be a requirement for all American kids so they can see just how arbitrarily sentencing is applied or how whether someone ends up in trial at all can hinge on whether a judge agrees or disagrees there was probable cause, and the judge will do like 20 of these hearings one after another. Not to mention the fact that any black American can tell you that there's two justice systems in the USA: the one for white people, and the one for everyone else. Hence why so many black kids can tell you about when their parents gave them "The Talk," and no, it's not the birds and bees one, it's the one about how your white friends can get up to mischief that you can't and there's nothing you can do about it so don't bother getting mad about it, just keep your head down and never backtalk the cops.
  - chrisco255 1y ago

bryanlarsen 1y ago

The bible is a crucial piece of literature reference. Pretty much every literary piece written before the middle of the 20th century assumed that their reader was also intimately familiar with the bible. For example, a writer could call a woman a "Jezebel" without any expository context, assuming that the reader would know what that meant. Thus the bible should be in every high school and higher education library.

graemep 1y ago
It should be commonly taught as a work of literature. Ideally the KJV which has largely fallen out of favour (except with certain groups) as a religious translation because more recent translations are so much better (advances in scholarship, more discoveries of early manuscripts...) but which is beautiful as a work.
- gorgoiler 1y ago
  It’s a sign of the times that the powers that be might make KJV, a labour of love and the apple of the author’s eye, come forth to fight the good fight and rake in some filthy lucre! By the skin of their teeth, these wolves in sheep’s clothing’s days must be numbered, but if they keep on the straight and narrow, live by the sword, and go the extra mile, then lo and behold the first shall be last and every salt of the earth will be made a scapegoat from here to the ends of the earth! after KJV, possibly with thanks to Bill (Shakespeare) also.
nemomarx 1y ago
any Western literary piece. for translated novels from China you might want some other foundational texts on hand, or the Quran to complement Persian literature, or etc But I don't see any reason a library can't have various books from antiquity, for reference at least. Probably multiple editions or translations of each too.
jeroenhd 1y ago
TIL "Jezebel" is a reference to the bible. Without the bible, people still have dictionaries if they don't understand words or references. Or they could use Google. I don't see why some books would be "too crucial" not to ban in a law banning books intended to protect kids. If anything, I find it easier to defend a ban on religious books in (public) schools.

asadotzler 1y ago

You thought wrong. Visit a library sometime to see otherwise. Various Bibles can be found in many public libraries.

jccalhoun 1y ago

It was totally in my library when I was in high school in the late 80s but I was in a small school in the midwest.

projektfu 1y ago

My public school library had several Bible versions, a couple Quran versions, and probably some Buddhist and Hindu texts of interest, though I didn't look for them. Why shouldn't they have these in the library?

dylan604 1y ago

You mean like the new Texas state law going into effect Sept 1 that says each class room must display the ten commandments and specifies the minimum size of the display would be unconstitutional. Also, unconstitutional by what definition? I'm guessing the current SCOTUS would not agree with your assessment.

zeroonetwothree 1y ago

Surely not, while it would be unconstitutional to present it as the correct religious view it is totally fine to teach it as part of a general literary overview. It’s been far too important to Western literature to omit entirely.