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Until you've worked at a job where you're genuinely excited to get up every morning and hack, it's very hard to empathize with this sentiment. Doubly so because

Until you've worked at a job where you're genuinely excited to get up every morning and hack, it's very hard to empathize with this sentiment. Doubly so because employers compelling enough to make employees passionate about their jobs often exploit this and have extremely substandard working conditions (exhibit A: academia). Despite that, once you've been genuinely passionate about a job, it's very hard to see the world any other way.

bryanlarsen 1y ago
Exhibit B: video games. Montreal (or any other video game hub) is a great place to start a software business. There are tons of highly qualified, underpaid and overworked software engineers to poach from the video game firms.
- abirch 1y ago
  Exhibit C: Zoo employees
  - xorcist 1y ago
    The music industry. The film industry.
    - gmei60 1y ago
      [dead]
keybored 1y ago
Empathize with what? Many people have experience with having free time and thus know what it’s like to do things that they like doing. Replace all of this job-passion with the fantasy of winning enough millions in the lottery to retire and yeah, there you go. People already fantasize about that. But the above doesn’t involve making a profit for an employer. I don’t know if that was supposed to be part of the empathizing.
- johnfn 1y ago
  No one is arguing that people don't understand the concept of being excited. But I think a lot of people would be less convinced that it's possible to be passionate about your work.
  - keybored 1y ago
    I know and believe that it is possible for a slave to be happy because she is a slave.
    - johnfn 1y ago
      Yes, that's a perfect example of what someone who didn't believe that work can be gratifying would say.
      - keybored 1y ago
        My statement directly contradicts “someone who [don’t] believe that work can be gratifying”.
- scarface_74 1y ago
  I don’t have millions and because of $life, I’m behind where I “should be” with retirement savings. Don’t cry for me, I’m good and catching up. But the idea of having “passion” for my job - even though I currently work at my favorite job I’ve had in 30 years across 10 jobs - just isn’t me. I would never give up a remote only job because I thought I would be “passionate” about another job and definitely not for less money. Because of combination of remote work, low fixed expenses and a couple of other hacks, I don’t dread work or even really care about retirement. My wife and I travel frequently now, did the digital nomad thing for a year two years ago and starting next year we plan to spend a few months of the winter internationally and the summer away from home either domestically or internationally. There was one job that I have had that was meaningful to me. I was an architect for a company that managed sending nurses to the homes and schools of special needs kids. I wrote back end and mobile apps for the nurses and actually had a chance to work with some in the field to understand how the nurses used the devices. It wasn’t a highly profitable company since most of the revenue came from Medicaid reimbursements. I only left when private equity took the company over and it became a PE rollup play.
gopalv 1y ago
> get up every morning and hack, it's very hard to empathize with this sentiment Even if you have experienced the joy, it might not always be rewarded & the disillusionment burnout is always a risk. The most bitter folks I've worked with are the ones who started with a lot of passion, but got turned around. Not to mention that this Passion comes in many flavours. I would not put a label on my experience, but "autistic joy" is a good comparison to what drives passion in my work - for my partner it comes from the final unveil and other eyes landing on their work. I only realized this when reading Andre Agassi's book and being stuck in close proximity during the pandemic (and to "bear witness" to provide joy).
- gmei60 1y ago
  [dead]
- saulpw 1y ago
  An interesting fact I learned: the original definition of "Passion" is the intimate suffering of Christ on the cross. It brings new meaning to corporations wanting Passion from their employees.
WalterBright 1y ago
> Doubly so because employers compelling enough to make employees passionate about their jobs often exploit this and have extremely substandard working conditions Another way to say this is the Law of Supply and Demand. It's no surprise at all that there are a greater number of people interested in a fun job, which reduces the pay offered. Conversely, dirty unpleasant jobs have fewer people interested, so the pay is greater. It's hard to see here who is exploiting who.
- loa_in_ 1y ago
  Providing substandard working conditions narrows it down significantly. Corner cutting below certain threshold just because you can?
WalterBright 1y ago
My dad was a professor in his later years. He once had a conversation with a secretary (back before computers replaced them) who complained: "garbage men get paid more than me!" My dad replied "why don't you quit and become a garbage collector?" She angrily replied "but that's a filthy disgusting job!"
- tstrimple 1y ago
  More apt advice would have been to unionize. Garbage collectors don't get paid better because the job is dirty.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
nativeit 1y ago
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your broader sentiment, but before Google I can’t think of many employers that provide the kind of open-ended projects and fringe benefits (Olympic-class gyms, rec centers, libraries, intellectually-enriched social environments, access to world-class research/engineering/media facilities, access to LexisNexis, etc.) that one gets working at a research university.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

Exhibit B: video games. Montreal (or any other video game hub) is a great place to start a software business. There are tons of highly qualified, underpaid and overworked software engineers to poach from the video game firms.

abirch 1y ago
Exhibit C: Zoo employees
- xorcist 1y ago
  The music industry. The film industry.
  - gmei60 1y ago
    [dead]

keybored 1y ago

Empathize with what? Many people have experience with having free time and thus know what it’s like to do things that they like doing. Replace all of this job-passion with the fantasy of winning enough millions in the lottery to retire and yeah, there you go. People already fantasize about that. But the above doesn’t involve making a profit for an employer. I don’t know if that was supposed to be part of the empathizing.

johnfn 1y ago
No one is arguing that people don't understand the concept of being excited. But I think a lot of people would be less convinced that it's possible to be passionate about your work.
- keybored 1y ago
  I know and believe that it is possible for a slave to be happy because she is a slave.
  - johnfn 1y ago
    Yes, that's a perfect example of what someone who didn't believe that work can be gratifying would say.
    - keybored 1y ago
      My statement directly contradicts “someone who [don’t] believe that work can be gratifying”.
scarface_74 1y ago
I don’t have millions and because of $life, I’m behind where I “should be” with retirement savings. Don’t cry for me, I’m good and catching up. But the idea of having “passion” for my job - even though I currently work at my favorite job I’ve had in 30 years across 10 jobs - just isn’t me. I would never give up a remote only job because I thought I would be “passionate” about another job and definitely not for less money. Because of combination of remote work, low fixed expenses and a couple of other hacks, I don’t dread work or even really care about retirement. My wife and I travel frequently now, did the digital nomad thing for a year two years ago and starting next year we plan to spend a few months of the winter internationally and the summer away from home either domestically or internationally. There was one job that I have had that was meaningful to me. I was an architect for a company that managed sending nurses to the homes and schools of special needs kids. I wrote back end and mobile apps for the nurses and actually had a chance to work with some in the field to understand how the nurses used the devices. It wasn’t a highly profitable company since most of the revenue came from Medicaid reimbursements. I only left when private equity took the company over and it became a PE rollup play.

gopalv 1y ago

> get up every morning and hack, it's very hard to empathize with this sentiment Even if you have experienced the joy, it might not always be rewarded & the disillusionment burnout is always a risk. The most bitter folks I've worked with are the ones who started with a lot of passion, but got turned around. Not to mention that this Passion comes in many flavours. I would not put a label on my experience, but "autistic joy" is a good comparison to what drives passion in my work - for my partner it comes from the final unveil and other eyes landing on their work. I only realized this when reading Andre Agassi's book and being stuck in close proximity during the pandemic (and to "bear witness" to provide joy).

gmei60 1y ago
[dead]
saulpw 1y ago
An interesting fact I learned: the original definition of "Passion" is the intimate suffering of Christ on the cross. It brings new meaning to corporations wanting Passion from their employees.

WalterBright 1y ago

> Doubly so because employers compelling enough to make employees passionate about their jobs often exploit this and have extremely substandard working conditions Another way to say this is the Law of Supply and Demand. It's no surprise at all that there are a greater number of people interested in a fun job, which reduces the pay offered. Conversely, dirty unpleasant jobs have fewer people interested, so the pay is greater. It's hard to see here who is exploiting who.

loa_in_ 1y ago
Providing substandard working conditions narrows it down significantly. Corner cutting below certain threshold just because you can?

WalterBright 1y ago

My dad was a professor in his later years. He once had a conversation with a secretary (back before computers replaced them) who complained: "garbage men get paid more than me!" My dad replied "why don't you quit and become a garbage collector?" She angrily replied "but that's a filthy disgusting job!"

tstrimple 1y ago
More apt advice would have been to unionize. Garbage collectors don't get paid better because the job is dirty.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

nativeit 1y ago

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your broader sentiment, but before Google I can’t think of many employers that provide the kind of open-ended projects and fringe benefits (Olympic-class gyms, rec centers, libraries, intellectually-enriched social environments, access to world-class research/engineering/media facilities, access to LexisNexis, etc.) that one gets working at a research university.