5 ms·

Tove Jansson, author of the Moomins, also illustrated "The Hobbit" in the 1960s. Her version turned out controversial because Gollum is a giant compared to Bil

by pavlov 1y ago

Tove Jansson, author of the Moomins, also illustrated "The Hobbit" in the 1960s. Her version turned out controversial because Gollum is a giant compared to Bilbo. Turns out Tolkien hadn't described Gollum's size anywhere, and the author actually reworded future editions of the book to make it clear that Gollum is a small creature. You can see the image here: https://www.thepopverse.com/jrr-tolkien-the-hobbit-tove-jansson https://www.thepopverse.com/jrr-tolkien-the-hobbit-tove-jans... In my opinion Jansson's "Hobbit" is a great interpretation by a legendary artist, and this Gollum controversy has overshadowed it too much. The Soviet 1970s version (the OP link here) has an obvious debt to Jansson's illustrations, but the style is much more conventional and stiff. Jansson's linework and compositions are exquisite.

CGMthrowaway 1y ago
>Her version turned out controversial because Gollum is a giant compared to Bilbo. Turns out Tolkien hadn't described Gollum's size anywhere Cain and Abel, whom Deagol and Smeagol (Gollum) parallel, may have been giant themselves, given that Adam (their father) is specified in certain religious /apocryphal texts as being 60-100 cubits tall, or 90-150 feet.
- antx 1y ago
  that's a wild theory, considering that Tolkien himself described Gollum to be "a small, slimy creature" after the revisions, probably because of Jansson's depiction of him. and although the parallel is clear between many characters of the Hobbit and the Bible, do you have any credible sources that Tolkien took inspiration from apocryphal texts (or in this case the Hadith) ?
  - CGMthrowaway 1y ago
    Not in this specific case. There are other examples that could be brought up, such as the Gift of Men (death), which may draw on the Book of Jubilees which suggests that death was given to man to limit wickedness and allow for renewal. Or Book of Enoch and the fall of Numenor. "Credible sources" will be difficult to procure as Tolkien notably avoided citing specific influences when discussing his works
mlinhares 1y ago
What an incredible thing, had no idea this existed!
dumbidiot 1y ago
I can see why one would think Gollum was huge early on. Without the context of the Lord of the Rings (where it’s established he was something like a hobbit before becoming Gollum), and also the fact that he ate goblins who wandered in his area of the caves, one might easily guess he was huge.
KineticLensman 1y ago
> the author actually reworded future editions of the book to make it clear that Gollum is a small creature The primary retconning occurred in 1951, when the encounter in The Hobbit between Bilbo and Gollum was rewritten to be confrontational rather than amicable, because TLOTR now needed the Ring to have a malevolent influence. The retconning is reflected in Bilbo's apology in the Council of Elrond to those (i.e. Gloin, but implicitly the readers) who may have heard a different version of his story. I'd love to see a first edition of the Hobbit to see what Tolkien actually did say about Gollum. [Edit]. Just checked my (third edition) copy of The Hobbit. It only says that Gollum was "a small slimy creature" who "had a little boat". There aren't any other descriptions of their relative size, except that Bilbo actually jumps over Gollum's head when escaping him (Gollum is crouched down at this point), as a sibling comment has just observed.
- bananaflag 1y ago
  https://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html https://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html
  - bombcar 1y ago
    I don’t find “small” in reference to Gollum, but the leap does provide some maximum size limits.
- WillAdams 1y ago
  There is a Facsimile Gift Edition which is pretty affordable: https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Facsimile-Gift-Tolkien-author/dp/0008259542 https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Facsimile-Gift-Tolkien-author/... Or, the differences in the texts are pretty thoroughly hashed out in: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12973638-the-history-of-the-hobbit-one-volume-edition https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12973638-the-history-of-... which contains an annotated (and analyzed) text of the first edition.
NateEag 1y ago
Fascinating - Jansson's artwork is lovely. Thank you for sharing it! I think the huge Gollum is a very understandable misinterpretation, but I think it's likely false the text she worked from was ambiguous about Gollum's size. If she was working from the 1951 revision, which seems likely if she was working in the 60s, then there is an explicit cue in the text showing that Gollum must be roughly Bilbo's size, when Bilbo is escaping the caves: > Straight over Gollum’s head he jumped, seven feet forward and three in the air... If Bilbo could jump over Gollum with a three-foot leap, Gollum cannot be a giant. That said, it's well after the passage she illustrated, and would require a pretty attentive reader to catch, so as I said, the mistake is certainly understandable. Additional caveat that I've not read the second edition of The Hobbit, only more recent ones, so it's conceivable that passage wasn't _exactly_ as I've quoted it. I strongly suspect was largely as written, however, and even without the explicit numbers, if Bilbo jumps over Gollum, the inference remains largely the same.
- KineticLensman 1y ago
  > If Bilbo could jump over Gollum with a three-foot leap, Gollum cannot be a giant. Agree (although Gollum was crouched down) > I strongly suspect was largely as written, however, and even without the explicit numbers, if Bilbo jumps over Gollum, the inference remains largely the same I'm guessing that the jump wasn't in the first edition at all, where Bilbo and Gollum apparently parted amicably.
- simplicio 1y ago
  Also the ring fits both Gollum and Bilbo, which limits how different in size they could be. (LOTR says the ring can change size, but this wasn't discussed in the Hobbit, and presumably hadn't occurred to Tolkien yet when he wrote it).
  - actionfromafar 1y ago
    Thumb/pinkie?
  - 3836293648 1y ago
    Does Gollum even wear the ring in the original Hobbit? Or does he just carry his precious around?
WalterBright 1y ago
Nice! any more of her illustrations?
baybal2 1y ago
[dead]
vodou 1y ago
Most books are, sadly, quite worthless nowadays (monetary value). But the Tove Jansson illustrated, swedish edition of Bilbo is still a sought-after book that usually goes for hundreds of dollars. Here is an ongoing auction on Tradera (the swedish ebay), currently at SEK 3050 (~$320): https://www.tradera.com/item/341571/686383148/j-r-r-tolkien-tove-jansson-bilbo-en-hobbits-aventyr-rab%C3%A9n-prisma-1994 https://www.tradera.com/item/341571/686383148/j-r-r-tolkien-...
- 542354234235 1y ago
  >Most books are, sadly, quite worthless nowadays (monetary value). I am not sure I understand. Aren't books "worthless" because they are readily available? Books are only expensive if they are rare (out of print, special limited edition, hand made or labor intensive, author signed, etc.). I don't think I would want "most" books to be rare and difficult to obtain.
  - pineaux 1y ago
    This is only partly true. The fact that the OP is referring to is the fact that books aren't sought after. Many books that have been bought for a 100 dollars in 1980 are worth only a few dollars nowadays even if they are relevant. Not many people look for used books.
  - winnit 1y ago
    There are plenty of books which are scarce but not sought after. Not necessarily because they lack intrinsic value but simply because they are forgotten. Beautifully crafted antique books which can be bought for almost nothing nowadays since the collector’s value isn’t there.
    - flir 1y ago
      Not my experience - the Victorian books I bought cheap as a teenager I wouldn't even attempt to replace these days. Maybe the books I'm interested in held their value for some reason. (Just picked one at random, the exact binding I have isn't in abe, but the two closest, less decorative examples are 135GBP and 195GBP).
VincentEvans 1y ago
I always thought that the passages that talk about Smeagol before he was corrupted by the ring - made it rather easy to think of him as a hobbit or maybe a human.
- bombcar 1y ago
  Those come from the Lord of the Rings where Gandalf makes it clear that Gollum is/was a Hobbit or a very close relation.

by pavlov 1y ago

CGMthrowaway 1y ago

>Her version turned out controversial because Gollum is a giant compared to Bilbo. Turns out Tolkien hadn't described Gollum's size anywhere Cain and Abel, whom Deagol and Smeagol (Gollum) parallel, may have been giant themselves, given that Adam (their father) is specified in certain religious /apocryphal texts as being 60-100 cubits tall, or 90-150 feet.

antx 1y ago
that's a wild theory, considering that Tolkien himself described Gollum to be "a small, slimy creature" after the revisions, probably because of Jansson's depiction of him. and although the parallel is clear between many characters of the Hobbit and the Bible, do you have any credible sources that Tolkien took inspiration from apocryphal texts (or in this case the Hadith) ?
- CGMthrowaway 1y ago
  Not in this specific case. There are other examples that could be brought up, such as the Gift of Men (death), which may draw on the Book of Jubilees which suggests that death was given to man to limit wickedness and allow for renewal. Or Book of Enoch and the fall of Numenor. "Credible sources" will be difficult to procure as Tolkien notably avoided citing specific influences when discussing his works

mlinhares 1y ago

What an incredible thing, had no idea this existed!

dumbidiot 1y ago

I can see why one would think Gollum was huge early on. Without the context of the Lord of the Rings (where it’s established he was something like a hobbit before becoming Gollum), and also the fact that he ate goblins who wandered in his area of the caves, one might easily guess he was huge.

KineticLensman 1y ago

> the author actually reworded future editions of the book to make it clear that Gollum is a small creature The primary retconning occurred in 1951, when the encounter in The Hobbit between Bilbo and Gollum was rewritten to be confrontational rather than amicable, because TLOTR now needed the Ring to have a malevolent influence. The retconning is reflected in Bilbo's apology in the Council of Elrond to those (i.e. Gloin, but implicitly the readers) who may have heard a different version of his story. I'd love to see a first edition of the Hobbit to see what Tolkien actually did say about Gollum. [Edit]. Just checked my (third edition) copy of The Hobbit. It only says that Gollum was "a small slimy creature" who "had a little boat". There aren't any other descriptions of their relative size, except that Bilbo actually jumps over Gollum's head when escaping him (Gollum is crouched down at this point), as a sibling comment has just observed.

bananaflag 1y ago
https://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html https://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html
- bombcar 1y ago
  I don’t find “small” in reference to Gollum, but the leap does provide some maximum size limits.
WillAdams 1y ago
There is a Facsimile Gift Edition which is pretty affordable: https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Facsimile-Gift-Tolkien-author/dp/0008259542 https://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Facsimile-Gift-Tolkien-author/... Or, the differences in the texts are pretty thoroughly hashed out in: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12973638-the-history-of-the-hobbit-one-volume-edition https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12973638-the-history-of-... which contains an annotated (and analyzed) text of the first edition.

NateEag 1y ago

Fascinating - Jansson's artwork is lovely. Thank you for sharing it! I think the huge Gollum is a very understandable misinterpretation, but I think it's likely false the text she worked from was ambiguous about Gollum's size. If she was working from the 1951 revision, which seems likely if she was working in the 60s, then there is an explicit cue in the text showing that Gollum must be roughly Bilbo's size, when Bilbo is escaping the caves: > Straight over Gollum’s head he jumped, seven feet forward and three in the air... If Bilbo could jump over Gollum with a three-foot leap, Gollum cannot be a giant. That said, it's well after the passage she illustrated, and would require a pretty attentive reader to catch, so as I said, the mistake is certainly understandable. Additional caveat that I've not read the second edition of The Hobbit, only more recent ones, so it's conceivable that passage wasn't _exactly_ as I've quoted it. I strongly suspect was largely as written, however, and even without the explicit numbers, if Bilbo jumps over Gollum, the inference remains largely the same.

KineticLensman 1y ago
> If Bilbo could jump over Gollum with a three-foot leap, Gollum cannot be a giant. Agree (although Gollum was crouched down) > I strongly suspect was largely as written, however, and even without the explicit numbers, if Bilbo jumps over Gollum, the inference remains largely the same I'm guessing that the jump wasn't in the first edition at all, where Bilbo and Gollum apparently parted amicably.
simplicio 1y ago
Also the ring fits both Gollum and Bilbo, which limits how different in size they could be. (LOTR says the ring can change size, but this wasn't discussed in the Hobbit, and presumably hadn't occurred to Tolkien yet when he wrote it).
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  Thumb/pinkie?
- 3836293648 1y ago
  Does Gollum even wear the ring in the original Hobbit? Or does he just carry his precious around?

WalterBright 1y ago

Nice! any more of her illustrations?

baybal2 1y ago

[dead]

vodou 1y ago

Most books are, sadly, quite worthless nowadays (monetary value). But the Tove Jansson illustrated, swedish edition of Bilbo is still a sought-after book that usually goes for hundreds of dollars. Here is an ongoing auction on Tradera (the swedish ebay), currently at SEK 3050 (~$320): https://www.tradera.com/item/341571/686383148/j-r-r-tolkien-tove-jansson-bilbo-en-hobbits-aventyr-rab%C3%A9n-prisma-1994 https://www.tradera.com/item/341571/686383148/j-r-r-tolkien-...

542354234235 1y ago
>Most books are, sadly, quite worthless nowadays (monetary value). I am not sure I understand. Aren't books "worthless" because they are readily available? Books are only expensive if they are rare (out of print, special limited edition, hand made or labor intensive, author signed, etc.). I don't think I would want "most" books to be rare and difficult to obtain.
- pineaux 1y ago
  This is only partly true. The fact that the OP is referring to is the fact that books aren't sought after. Many books that have been bought for a 100 dollars in 1980 are worth only a few dollars nowadays even if they are relevant. Not many people look for used books.
- winnit 1y ago
  There are plenty of books which are scarce but not sought after. Not necessarily because they lack intrinsic value but simply because they are forgotten. Beautifully crafted antique books which can be bought for almost nothing nowadays since the collector’s value isn’t there.
  - flir 1y ago
    Not my experience - the Victorian books I bought cheap as a teenager I wouldn't even attempt to replace these days. Maybe the books I'm interested in held their value for some reason. (Just picked one at random, the exact binding I have isn't in abe, but the two closest, less decorative examples are 135GBP and 195GBP).

VincentEvans 1y ago

I always thought that the passages that talk about Smeagol before he was corrupted by the ring - made it rather easy to think of him as a hobbit or maybe a human.

bombcar 1y ago
Those come from the Lord of the Rings where Gandalf makes it clear that Gollum is/was a Hobbit or a very close relation.