3 ms·

> Yes you were part of the family for better and for worse. I don't see how that is problematic, you weren't working for a different household, you were just pa

by watwut 1y ago

> Yes you were part of the family for better and for worse. I don't see how that is problematic, you weren't working for a different household, you were just part of this household. No you was not part of the family. And this was not part of the family thing either. It was more of the sweetshop with workers who have no choice thing. > But you were required to look for a different master every few years? That claim doesn't make sense to me. You was not given choice to shop around or change up however you wanted. That was not a thing. Occasionally you could be asked to move to different master at predetermined set points. But not always. I do not even see what is nonsensical or hard to understand about such setup. > you had a social security net by the family/household currently living in (meaning your master's in this case) Your master was not your security net. You would be kicked off and expected go back to your actual family. > if you have rows with everyone you can just walk for a day to the next city, where nobody knows you, and start afresh That was definitely not a thing either. They would vet you and your character with where you came from. There was a lot of suspicion about new people. You would have quite a difficult time to establish yourself or even find a living. Being banished was a punishment for a reason - and other village you go to will be very aware newcomer might be a troublemaker they did not wanted elsewhere. > The latter isn't possible now anymore. That is significantly easier now.

1718627440 1y ago
> No you was not part of the family. And this was not part of the family thing either. It was more of the sweetshop with workers who have no choice thing. Name it part of the household then. In a modern sweetshop you get some money (or not) generally too less to pay for food and other things. Nobody cares if you die or just don't show up the next day. As a prentice, you don't get money, but you also don't buy food and you don't pay for a roof. Your master can not afford for you to not show up or be invalid for work, because he can only afford to house and teach so many prentices. He also can't afford you producing low-quality goods, because the goods get sold in his name. > You were not given choice to shop around or change up however you wanted. I think this conflicts with that you were required to have served multiple masters as part of your education. When a prentice shows up to a new master, it means the new master gets an already trained workforce while not having to pay for the expenses of the education. Your old master will not be willing/able to afford that loss, so you need to mess up some money before you get kicked out. > Your master was not your security net. You would be kicked off When you become invalid indefinitely, yes. When you get sick for some days, your master will get you back to work as soon as possible. > expected go back to your actual family. When you show up broke after years, I bet you get kicked out there also. You have better choices moving to a new city or living off the streets. > That was definitely not a thing either. They would vet you and your character with where you came from. There was a lot of suspicion about new people. You would have quite a difficult time to establish yourself or even find a living. Being banished was a punishment for a reason - and other village you go to will be very aware newcomer might be a troublemaker they did not wanted elsewhere. Having an influx of new people from the landscape were how the cities operated. Having more people made the city richer and more powerful. It really depended on how skilled you were. If you can claim to be able to do X and you are able to show it, than you have a good chance to find work. If you don't, then good luck dying in the streets. > That is significantly easier now. Being a criminal and trying to flee? Good luck with that in the time of surveillance and world-wide police cooperation. Nowadays you can pretty much only double down on being criminal, be convicted or flee to a third-world country, where you will probably die soon/ have a way lower living standard. In the past you also had the opportunity to just switch jurisdiction and stop being a criminal, while not having a different living standard.
- watwut 1y ago
  All the stuff you wrote is purely imaginary and has nothing to do with how people in medieval times actually behaved. You just made it all up, completely, based on what you want history to be. In particular, if you was too sick or invalid or whatever, you got kicked off. That is it. No one expected the master to care for you or handle your healthcare. It is true you was not paid and worked for food. If you produced low quality work, you would get simpler jobs (cleaning, wood chopping) for a but, would not learn and would eventually be kicked off too. > When you show up broke after years, I bet you get kicked out there also. You have better choices moving to a new city or living off the streets. Generally, they were unwilling to kick you off family, unless you was disobedient. That would be shameful for them. This was your safety net and related social obligations were actually strong. You was not better off "living in the streets" of a town (which were significantly smaller). Like, cities had very real limit of how many people they could accommodate before it became impossible. Newcomer with troublemaking potential was not making it richer nor was welcome.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    > You just made it all up, completely, based on what you want history to be. I'm sorry, I'm not yet 500 years old, I have only knowledge based on school and it being portrayed in public media. Do you have sources for your differing knowledge. > No one expected the master to care for you or handle your healthcare. Yes nobody is going to sue him. However when one of your prentices vanishes, there will be gossip, that's bad for business. Also I argued that this is bad for the master purely for economic reasons (sunken costs), because feeding someone is not cheap especially in the middle ages. > It is true you was not paid and worked for food. Yes and this is not something bad at all. It is just a different economy. > Generally, they were unwilling to kick you off family, unless you was disobedient. Yes and your father would claim you were disobedient to your master when you have not learned enough, as he has sent you there. That's why I would earlier that it's kind-of like you are now part of the master's family.
    - lesuorac 1y ago
      > it being portrayed in public media. I'm not sure why the media would more accurately depict vampires than a blacksmith.

by watwut 1y ago

1718627440 1y ago

> No you was not part of the family. And this was not part of the family thing either. It was more of the sweetshop with workers who have no choice thing. Name it part of the household then. In a modern sweetshop you get some money (or not) generally too less to pay for food and other things. Nobody cares if you die or just don't show up the next day. As a prentice, you don't get money, but you also don't buy food and you don't pay for a roof. Your master can not afford for you to not show up or be invalid for work, because he can only afford to house and teach so many prentices. He also can't afford you producing low-quality goods, because the goods get sold in his name. > You were not given choice to shop around or change up however you wanted. I think this conflicts with that you were required to have served multiple masters as part of your education. When a prentice shows up to a new master, it means the new master gets an already trained workforce while not having to pay for the expenses of the education. Your old master will not be willing/able to afford that loss, so you need to mess up some money before you get kicked out. > Your master was not your security net. You would be kicked off When you become invalid indefinitely, yes. When you get sick for some days, your master will get you back to work as soon as possible. > expected go back to your actual family. When you show up broke after years, I bet you get kicked out there also. You have better choices moving to a new city or living off the streets. > That was definitely not a thing either. They would vet you and your character with where you came from. There was a lot of suspicion about new people. You would have quite a difficult time to establish yourself or even find a living. Being banished was a punishment for a reason - and other village you go to will be very aware newcomer might be a troublemaker they did not wanted elsewhere. Having an influx of new people from the landscape were how the cities operated. Having more people made the city richer and more powerful. It really depended on how skilled you were. If you can claim to be able to do X and you are able to show it, than you have a good chance to find work. If you don't, then good luck dying in the streets. > That is significantly easier now. Being a criminal and trying to flee? Good luck with that in the time of surveillance and world-wide police cooperation. Nowadays you can pretty much only double down on being criminal, be convicted or flee to a third-world country, where you will probably die soon/ have a way lower living standard. In the past you also had the opportunity to just switch jurisdiction and stop being a criminal, while not having a different living standard.

watwut 1y ago
All the stuff you wrote is purely imaginary and has nothing to do with how people in medieval times actually behaved. You just made it all up, completely, based on what you want history to be. In particular, if you was too sick or invalid or whatever, you got kicked off. That is it. No one expected the master to care for you or handle your healthcare. It is true you was not paid and worked for food. If you produced low quality work, you would get simpler jobs (cleaning, wood chopping) for a but, would not learn and would eventually be kicked off too. > When you show up broke after years, I bet you get kicked out there also. You have better choices moving to a new city or living off the streets. Generally, they were unwilling to kick you off family, unless you was disobedient. That would be shameful for them. This was your safety net and related social obligations were actually strong. You was not better off "living in the streets" of a town (which were significantly smaller). Like, cities had very real limit of how many people they could accommodate before it became impossible. Newcomer with troublemaking potential was not making it richer nor was welcome.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  > You just made it all up, completely, based on what you want history to be. I'm sorry, I'm not yet 500 years old, I have only knowledge based on school and it being portrayed in public media. Do you have sources for your differing knowledge. > No one expected the master to care for you or handle your healthcare. Yes nobody is going to sue him. However when one of your prentices vanishes, there will be gossip, that's bad for business. Also I argued that this is bad for the master purely for economic reasons (sunken costs), because feeding someone is not cheap especially in the middle ages. > It is true you was not paid and worked for food. Yes and this is not something bad at all. It is just a different economy. > Generally, they were unwilling to kick you off family, unless you was disobedient. Yes and your father would claim you were disobedient to your master when you have not learned enough, as he has sent you there. That's why I would earlier that it's kind-of like you are now part of the master's family.
  - lesuorac 1y ago
    > it being portrayed in public media. I'm not sure why the media would more accurately depict vampires than a blacksmith.