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For a remedy to this flavour of pessimism I'd suggest you read Bregman's Humankind[1]. tldr; the current level of exploiting each other doesn't come naturally

For a remedy to this flavour of pessimism I'd suggest you read Bregman's Humankind[1]. tldr; the current level of exploiting each other doesn't come naturally for people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humankind:_A_Hopeful_History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humankind:_A_Hopeful_History

jjani 1y ago
> the current level of exploiting each other doesn't come naturally for people. Agreed, it doesn't. Nothing about that fact seems reason for optimism, however. It's a gigantic leap to go from "the current level of exploiting each other doesn't come naturally for people" to "that level is going to decrease, or stop rising, any time soon".
- low_tech_love 1y ago
  It doesn’t as long as we keep each other at check. I do believe it’s natural for humans to take advantage of opportunities that arise in your environment; if a human being sees that they can do better, at the expense of others, then it seems to me that is a very natural response for an individual that has a single, disconnected brain (as opposed to some kind of hive mind). But don’t mistake “natural” with “good”. Actually that is much more natural (in a wild sense) than having a complex society full of moral and philosophical constraints. I myself believe very strongly in ethics and try to be ethical as much as I can, but that doesn’t mean ethical behaviour comes “naturally”. If you can’t accept that not everyone will be ethical, and some will act “savagely”, then you’re being naive and opening yourself to, well, opportunities of exploitation.
mock-possum 1y ago
Doesn’t it, though? Where else could it come from, but our own nature? Do we not live in an environment of our own creation, more and more each generation? Edit - you know what, after a bit of reading, I do get the point being made. Thanks for the book reference, I’m going to place a hold at my library if they have it.
low_tech_love 1y ago
I don’t agree this is pessimism, actually I live a pretty content and optimistic life. However my comfort and optimism comes from being skeptical in a healthy way and knowing that human beings look out for themselves and that I need to look out for myself and my family, keeping others at check in a healthy, respectful way. I don’t buy into this idea that human beings are supposed to be “larger than life” in order to live happy and in balance with each other.

jjani 1y ago

> the current level of exploiting each other doesn't come naturally for people. Agreed, it doesn't. Nothing about that fact seems reason for optimism, however. It's a gigantic leap to go from "the current level of exploiting each other doesn't come naturally for people" to "that level is going to decrease, or stop rising, any time soon".

low_tech_love 1y ago
It doesn’t as long as we keep each other at check. I do believe it’s natural for humans to take advantage of opportunities that arise in your environment; if a human being sees that they can do better, at the expense of others, then it seems to me that is a very natural response for an individual that has a single, disconnected brain (as opposed to some kind of hive mind). But don’t mistake “natural” with “good”. Actually that is much more natural (in a wild sense) than having a complex society full of moral and philosophical constraints. I myself believe very strongly in ethics and try to be ethical as much as I can, but that doesn’t mean ethical behaviour comes “naturally”. If you can’t accept that not everyone will be ethical, and some will act “savagely”, then you’re being naive and opening yourself to, well, opportunities of exploitation.

mock-possum 1y ago

Doesn’t it, though? Where else could it come from, but our own nature? Do we not live in an environment of our own creation, more and more each generation? Edit - you know what, after a bit of reading, I do get the point being made. Thanks for the book reference, I’m going to place a hold at my library if they have it.

low_tech_love 1y ago

I don’t agree this is pessimism, actually I live a pretty content and optimistic life. However my comfort and optimism comes from being skeptical in a healthy way and knowing that human beings look out for themselves and that I need to look out for myself and my family, keeping others at check in a healthy, respectful way. I don’t buy into this idea that human beings are supposed to be “larger than life” in order to live happy and in balance with each other.