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Which is again, a reactionary and conservative critique that is essentially anti-commons. It's not pro-human, or pro-soul. It's pro intellectual property, as ev

Which is again, a reactionary and conservative critique that is essentially anti-commons. It's not pro-human, or pro-soul. It's pro intellectual property, as evidenced by your glib and punchy response: its more important that people are rewarded for their ramen recipes than it is for the masses to have access to the general form and guidance of how to make ramen. Perhaps the suggestion is, if people couldnt get rewarded for their ramen recipes then we'd have no ramen. It should be apparent that this is absurd stance. Ramen is such a good example. The suggestion is that somehow some people have the intellectual ownership over a common set of ingredients that describe a general cultural phenomena. Question: when you downvoted the comment, what exactly were you feeling? Are you that sensitive to critique? I've attached no value judgement to being reactionary or conservative.

martin-t 1y ago
Yes, it's absolutely essential that people are rewarded for intellectual work, otherwise they'll stop doing it. "The masses" have absolutely no right to demand I hand them what I produce, whether physical or intellectual. On the other hand, when somebody makes money from my work, whether intellectual or physical, I am entitled to a reward proportional to the amount of work I did. So yes, I am pro-human. I am just not pro-freeloader or pro-parasite.
- potsandpans 1y ago
  By the logic of quoted text, you don't own your ideas, they're merely a ground up synthesis of other people's ip. Nothing you did came from a vacuum. You owe all of human history and culture. The stance is incoherent. It's evidenced by each followup, how your language becomes even more provacative. > parasite Yes. Very pro-human. Now tell me how you _really_ feel about the commons.
  - martin-t 1y ago
    What quoted text? > The stance is incoherent. Mine? Explain how. Yours? Certainly: > your glib and punchy response: its more important that people are rewarded for their ramen recipes than it is for the masses to have access to the general form and guidance of how to make ramen You argue as if without statistical models this knowledge is lost or unavailable. This is clearly not the case - otherwise what would those models train on? > your language becomes even more provacative I said 1) people should get paid for work 2) people have no right to take from others without consent 3) people should get paid for work, again. How provocative... > Yes. Very pro-human. Now tell me how you _really_ feel about the commons. There are no commons. There are people with various approaches to life, some of whom for example take from others a) without consent b) more than they give back by a wide margin c) abuse their position to fake consent. --- BTW, you said I am not pro-soul, and I am not in fact pro- anything which does not exist according to the best of my/human knowledge... ...but unrelated topics leaking to output from training data are something that happens with LLM-generated text so this might be relevant: https://distantprovince.by/posts/its-rude-to-show-ai-output-to-people/ https://distantprovince.by/posts/its-rude-to-show-ai-output-...
    - potsandpans 1y ago
      > What quoted text? You don't even know what we're discussing: the critique centered around the text of the article that I quoted in my op comment. "Me me me. My money, my ideas, MY stance" I've said very little about you, other than asking why you downvoted me. I care about the ideas.. This is what a rational argument is. I'm not provoked by your "no you..." defense. You are after all arguing about ramen, concretely, and the worry if we don't pay people for their recipes we may never have ramen again.
      - martin-t 1y ago
        > You don't even know what we're discussing Stop insulting me. > I quoted in my op comment. I considered you meant this but dismissed it because what you said clearly does not follow from it. A recipe takes experimentation - human time and experience. Sure it's often based on other's recipes but those people often gave it to you willingly and it's not like the author is making money from it. OTOH if you collect recipes from other people and make money from publishing them, then those people _do_ deserve most of the money you make. Obviously this gets hard to implement truly fairly, especially if you go multiple steps deep. > Which ... It ... It ... as evidenced by your glib and punchy response > your language becomes even more provacative > Now tell me how you _really_ feel about the commons. > I've said very little about you Really? > I'm not provoked by your "no you..." defense. Both points were genuine - I don't understand how my view is inconsistent and I clearly demonstrated how yours is. Seeing as we're both arguing about the same thing and have differing views, it's the natural state that at least one of us (possibly both) has an inconsistent view, isn't it? It literally has to be a case of, as you called it "no you". > You are after all arguing about ramen, concretely OK, I'll consider this mocking and if I don't get a reasonable reply to my previous points, I don't see any point in continuing.
        potsandpans 1y ago
        I apologize on both accounts. To recenter my argument, and restate in an attempt to be less ambiguous: There is a bit of irony on how this creator has positioned themselves. The website itself presents as very arts-and-crafts, salt of the earth, "human". The crux of the argument I feel exists in the initial quoted text, which I feel is (the ironic part) not very human (collective) at all, and a much more self-centered, pro-individualist. My observation is that this is what you see typically in conservative reactionary movements. Luddites (the idea of, not the historical narrative which is rich and nuanced) here would be the canonical example: a legitimate reaction to a disruption in a conservative posture. e.g. _the machines are the problem, not the context for which the machines are allowed to exist without equity for our society as a whole_. It misses the forest for the trees. The example, by extension, is somewhat humorous to me. To eat, is to be human. A person cannot "stop creating recipes", because we literally need food to survive. And so to suggest that any one person might have ownership over the specific combination of ingredients, of which have been discovered and selected and refined through the whole "human project"... is to me, patently absurd. The inconsistancy that I sense is that we digest the collective knowledge of the world, synthesize it and produce something new. The llm is doing analogous work here, the difference is it doesn't have a human credential associated with it. It's obky loosely analogous, it's not the same thing... it just rhymes. An llm trained on all of humanities data provides a synthesis of all of our information, readily available to all: I can run an open model on my local machine and have it synthesize for me at whim without big corpo in the equation at all. To note: I am not making a value judgement here. Instead I'm observing that the _feeling_ expressed by the author is in my opinion not consistent with the intent. Stated somewhat ungenerously, it's not "for people", it's "for ME to decide who it's for."
- pixl97 1y ago
  Eh, no, you're not entitled to make money from your work. Moreso the amount of money people make for work isn't well grounded to the amount of effort. I sit behind a desk babysitting computers and get paid what I consider a lot. The guy out there building a side walk is doing far more work yet getting paid far less. Even worse is almost everything you know and do is from public domain information. It is completely and totally in societies favor to turn your intellectual information into public information after some amount of time so the world doesn't become stagnant under a few large IP owners.
  - martin-t 1y ago
    And is that right? Is that how it should be? I will partake in the taking because ultimately the world is PvP now and doing otherwise would disadvantage myself against those who would. But I will not support such a system. At least your example can be somewhat justified - one kind of work takes a lot more skill (both natural and learned) than the other and the difference in reward is within the same order of magnitude. But then there are jobs which produce no real value on their own. They basically take a cut from everyone else's work. And those are parasitic. Ironically those jobs also tend to determine everyone's wage. Their real value would be determined by inverting the power structure - the people doing actual work would hire these assistants ("managers" or "executives") to make them more productive if it was needed and would pay them how much their work is actually valued. > a few large IP owners This implicitly assumes IP should be allowed to be bough. In a fair system, it would always belong to the people who actually produced it. If a large corporation wanted to make money off of it, it would have to convince these people and offer then terms they would agree with.

martin-t 1y ago

Yes, it's absolutely essential that people are rewarded for intellectual work, otherwise they'll stop doing it. "The masses" have absolutely no right to demand I hand them what I produce, whether physical or intellectual. On the other hand, when somebody makes money from my work, whether intellectual or physical, I am entitled to a reward proportional to the amount of work I did. So yes, I am pro-human. I am just not pro-freeloader or pro-parasite.

potsandpans 1y ago
By the logic of quoted text, you don't own your ideas, they're merely a ground up synthesis of other people's ip. Nothing you did came from a vacuum. You owe all of human history and culture. The stance is incoherent. It's evidenced by each followup, how your language becomes even more provacative. > parasite Yes. Very pro-human. Now tell me how you _really_ feel about the commons.
- martin-t 1y ago
  What quoted text? > The stance is incoherent. Mine? Explain how. Yours? Certainly: > your glib and punchy response: its more important that people are rewarded for their ramen recipes than it is for the masses to have access to the general form and guidance of how to make ramen You argue as if without statistical models this knowledge is lost or unavailable. This is clearly not the case - otherwise what would those models train on? > your language becomes even more provacative I said 1) people should get paid for work 2) people have no right to take from others without consent 3) people should get paid for work, again. How provocative... > Yes. Very pro-human. Now tell me how you _really_ feel about the commons. There are no commons. There are people with various approaches to life, some of whom for example take from others a) without consent b) more than they give back by a wide margin c) abuse their position to fake consent. --- BTW, you said I am not pro-soul, and I am not in fact pro- anything which does not exist according to the best of my/human knowledge... ...but unrelated topics leaking to output from training data are something that happens with LLM-generated text so this might be relevant: https://distantprovince.by/posts/its-rude-to-show-ai-output-to-people/ https://distantprovince.by/posts/its-rude-to-show-ai-output-...
  - potsandpans 1y ago
    > What quoted text? You don't even know what we're discussing: the critique centered around the text of the article that I quoted in my op comment. "Me me me. My money, my ideas, MY stance" I've said very little about you, other than asking why you downvoted me. I care about the ideas.. This is what a rational argument is. I'm not provoked by your "no you..." defense. You are after all arguing about ramen, concretely, and the worry if we don't pay people for their recipes we may never have ramen again.
    - martin-t 1y ago
      > You don't even know what we're discussing Stop insulting me. > I quoted in my op comment. I considered you meant this but dismissed it because what you said clearly does not follow from it. A recipe takes experimentation - human time and experience. Sure it's often based on other's recipes but those people often gave it to you willingly and it's not like the author is making money from it. OTOH if you collect recipes from other people and make money from publishing them, then those people _do_ deserve most of the money you make. Obviously this gets hard to implement truly fairly, especially if you go multiple steps deep. > Which ... It ... It ... as evidenced by your glib and punchy response > your language becomes even more provacative > Now tell me how you _really_ feel about the commons. > I've said very little about you Really? > I'm not provoked by your "no you..." defense. Both points were genuine - I don't understand how my view is inconsistent and I clearly demonstrated how yours is. Seeing as we're both arguing about the same thing and have differing views, it's the natural state that at least one of us (possibly both) has an inconsistent view, isn't it? It literally has to be a case of, as you called it "no you". > You are after all arguing about ramen, concretely OK, I'll consider this mocking and if I don't get a reasonable reply to my previous points, I don't see any point in continuing.
      - potsandpans 1y ago
        I apologize on both accounts. To recenter my argument, and restate in an attempt to be less ambiguous: There is a bit of irony on how this creator has positioned themselves. The website itself presents as very arts-and-crafts, salt of the earth, "human". The crux of the argument I feel exists in the initial quoted text, which I feel is (the ironic part) not very human (collective) at all, and a much more self-centered, pro-individualist. My observation is that this is what you see typically in conservative reactionary movements. Luddites (the idea of, not the historical narrative which is rich and nuanced) here would be the canonical example: a legitimate reaction to a disruption in a conservative posture. e.g. _the machines are the problem, not the context for which the machines are allowed to exist without equity for our society as a whole_. It misses the forest for the trees. The example, by extension, is somewhat humorous to me. To eat, is to be human. A person cannot "stop creating recipes", because we literally need food to survive. And so to suggest that any one person might have ownership over the specific combination of ingredients, of which have been discovered and selected and refined through the whole "human project"... is to me, patently absurd. The inconsistancy that I sense is that we digest the collective knowledge of the world, synthesize it and produce something new. The llm is doing analogous work here, the difference is it doesn't have a human credential associated with it. It's obky loosely analogous, it's not the same thing... it just rhymes. An llm trained on all of humanities data provides a synthesis of all of our information, readily available to all: I can run an open model on my local machine and have it synthesize for me at whim without big corpo in the equation at all. To note: I am not making a value judgement here. Instead I'm observing that the _feeling_ expressed by the author is in my opinion not consistent with the intent. Stated somewhat ungenerously, it's not "for people", it's "for ME to decide who it's for."
pixl97 1y ago
Eh, no, you're not entitled to make money from your work. Moreso the amount of money people make for work isn't well grounded to the amount of effort. I sit behind a desk babysitting computers and get paid what I consider a lot. The guy out there building a side walk is doing far more work yet getting paid far less. Even worse is almost everything you know and do is from public domain information. It is completely and totally in societies favor to turn your intellectual information into public information after some amount of time so the world doesn't become stagnant under a few large IP owners.
- martin-t 1y ago
  And is that right? Is that how it should be? I will partake in the taking because ultimately the world is PvP now and doing otherwise would disadvantage myself against those who would. But I will not support such a system. At least your example can be somewhat justified - one kind of work takes a lot more skill (both natural and learned) than the other and the difference in reward is within the same order of magnitude. But then there are jobs which produce no real value on their own. They basically take a cut from everyone else's work. And those are parasitic. Ironically those jobs also tend to determine everyone's wage. Their real value would be determined by inverting the power structure - the people doing actual work would hire these assistants ("managers" or "executives") to make them more productive if it was needed and would pay them how much their work is actually valued. > a few large IP owners This implicitly assumes IP should be allowed to be bough. In a fair system, it would always belong to the people who actually produced it. If a large corporation wanted to make money off of it, it would have to convince these people and offer then terms they would agree with.