4 ms·

So Europe ends up with an incidental/accidental advantage in the AI race?

by dv_dt 1y ago

buckle8017 1y ago
In residential power delivery? yes In power cost? no I'm literally any other way? also no
kube-system 1y ago
Consumers with desktop computers are not winning any AI race anywhere.
atonse 1y ago
All American households get mains power at 240v (I'm missing some nuance here about poles and phases, so the electrical people can correct my terminology). It's often used for things like ACs, Clothes Dryers, Stoves, EV Chargers. So it's pretty simple for a certified electrician to just make a 240v outlet if needed. It's just not the default that comes out of a wall.
- kube-system 1y ago
  To get technical -- US homes get two phases of 120v that are 180 degrees out of phase with the neutral. Using either phase and the neutral gives you 120v. Using the two out of phase 120v phases together gives you a difference of 240v. https://appliantology.org/uploads/monthly_2016_06/large.57581ad8d9a5d_240VACinResidentialPowerSupplies.png.f176ab25d2092125b3d05d648597b1f8.png https://appliantology.org/uploads/monthly_2016_06/large.5758...
  - ender341341 1y ago
    Even more technical, we don't have two phases, we have 1-phase that's split in half. I hate it cause it makes it confusing. Two phase power is not the same as split phase (There's basically only weird older installations of 2 phase in use anymore).
    - kube-system 1y ago
      Yeah that's right. The grid is three phases (as it is basically everywhere in the world), and the transformer at the pole splits one of those in half. Although, what are technically half-phases are usually just called "phases" when they're inside of a home.
- voxadam 1y ago
  Relevant video from Technology Connections: "The US electrical system is not 120V" https://youtu.be/jMmUoZh3Hq4 https://youtu.be/jMmUoZh3Hq4
  - atonse 1y ago
    That's such a great video, like most of his stuff.
- dv_dt 1y ago
  Well yes its possible but often $500-1000 to run a new 240v outlet, and that's to a garage for an ev charger. If you want an outlet in the house I dont know how much wall people want to tear up and extra time and cost.
  - atonse 1y ago
    Sure yeah, I was just clarifying that if the issue is 240v, etc, US houses have the feed coming in. Infrastructure-wise it's not an issue at all.
- ender341341 1y ago
  > So it's pretty simple for a certified electrician to just make a 240v outlet if needed. It's just not the default that comes out of a wall. It'd be all new wire run (120 is split at the panel, we aren't running 240v all over the house) and currently electricians are at a premium so it'd likely end up costing a thousand+ to run that if you're using an electrician, more if there's not clear access from an attic/basement/crawlspace. Though I think it's unlikely we'll see an actual need for it at home, I imaging a 800w cpu is going to be for server class CPUs and rare-ish to see in home environments.
  - vel0city 1y ago
    I don't think many people would want some 2kW+ system sitting on their desk at home anyways. That's quite a space heater to sit next to.
    - bonzini 1y ago
      Also the noise from the fans.
    - Tor3 1y ago
      I should look at the label (or check with a meter..), but when I run my SGI Octane with its additional XIO SCSI board in active use, the little "office" room gets very hot indeed.
  - com2kid 1y ago
    > and currently electricians are at a premium so it'd likely end up costing a thousand+ I got a quote for over 2 thousand to run a 24v line literally 9 feet from my electrical panel across my garage to put a EV charger in. Opening up an actual wall and running it to another room? I can only imagine the insane quotes that'd get.
    - Marsymars 1y ago
      I kinda suspect there’s a premium once you mention “EV vehicle”, since you’re signalling that you’re affluent enough to afford an EV and have committed to spending the money required to get EV charging at home working, etc. (Kinda like getting a quote for anything wedding related.) I’m getting some wiring run about the same distance (to my attic, fished up a wall, with moderately poor access) for non-EV purposes next week and the quote was a few hundred dollars.
- the8472 1y ago
  If we're counting all the phases then european homes get 400V 3-phase, not 240V split-phase. Not that typical residential connections matter to highend servers.
  - bonzini 1y ago
    It depends on the country, in many places independent houses get a single 230V phase only.

So Europe ends up with an incidental/accidental advantage in the AI race?

by dv_dt 1y ago

So Europe ends up with an incidental/accidental advantage in the AI race?

buckle8017 1y ago

In residential power delivery? yes In power cost? no I'm literally any other way? also no

kube-system 1y ago

Consumers with desktop computers are not winning any AI race anywhere.

atonse 1y ago

All American households get mains power at 240v (I'm missing some nuance here about poles and phases, so the electrical people can correct my terminology). It's often used for things like ACs, Clothes Dryers, Stoves, EV Chargers. So it's pretty simple for a certified electrician to just make a 240v outlet if needed. It's just not the default that comes out of a wall.

kube-system 1y ago
To get technical -- US homes get two phases of 120v that are 180 degrees out of phase with the neutral. Using either phase and the neutral gives you 120v. Using the two out of phase 120v phases together gives you a difference of 240v. https://appliantology.org/uploads/monthly_2016_06/large.57581ad8d9a5d_240VACinResidentialPowerSupplies.png.f176ab25d2092125b3d05d648597b1f8.png https://appliantology.org/uploads/monthly_2016_06/large.5758...
- ender341341 1y ago
  Even more technical, we don't have two phases, we have 1-phase that's split in half. I hate it cause it makes it confusing. Two phase power is not the same as split phase (There's basically only weird older installations of 2 phase in use anymore).
  - kube-system 1y ago
    Yeah that's right. The grid is three phases (as it is basically everywhere in the world), and the transformer at the pole splits one of those in half. Although, what are technically half-phases are usually just called "phases" when they're inside of a home.
voxadam 1y ago
Relevant video from Technology Connections: "The US electrical system is not 120V" https://youtu.be/jMmUoZh3Hq4 https://youtu.be/jMmUoZh3Hq4
- atonse 1y ago
  That's such a great video, like most of his stuff.
dv_dt 1y ago
Well yes its possible but often $500-1000 to run a new 240v outlet, and that's to a garage for an ev charger. If you want an outlet in the house I dont know how much wall people want to tear up and extra time and cost.
- atonse 1y ago
  Sure yeah, I was just clarifying that if the issue is 240v, etc, US houses have the feed coming in. Infrastructure-wise it's not an issue at all.
ender341341 1y ago
> So it's pretty simple for a certified electrician to just make a 240v outlet if needed. It's just not the default that comes out of a wall. It'd be all new wire run (120 is split at the panel, we aren't running 240v all over the house) and currently electricians are at a premium so it'd likely end up costing a thousand+ to run that if you're using an electrician, more if there's not clear access from an attic/basement/crawlspace. Though I think it's unlikely we'll see an actual need for it at home, I imaging a 800w cpu is going to be for server class CPUs and rare-ish to see in home environments.
- vel0city 1y ago
  I don't think many people would want some 2kW+ system sitting on their desk at home anyways. That's quite a space heater to sit next to.
  - bonzini 1y ago
    Also the noise from the fans.
  - Tor3 1y ago
    I should look at the label (or check with a meter..), but when I run my SGI Octane with its additional XIO SCSI board in active use, the little "office" room gets very hot indeed.
- com2kid 1y ago
  > and currently electricians are at a premium so it'd likely end up costing a thousand+ I got a quote for over 2 thousand to run a 24v line literally 9 feet from my electrical panel across my garage to put a EV charger in. Opening up an actual wall and running it to another room? I can only imagine the insane quotes that'd get.
  - Marsymars 1y ago
    I kinda suspect there’s a premium once you mention “EV vehicle”, since you’re signalling that you’re affluent enough to afford an EV and have committed to spending the money required to get EV charging at home working, etc. (Kinda like getting a quote for anything wedding related.) I’m getting some wiring run about the same distance (to my attic, fished up a wall, with moderately poor access) for non-EV purposes next week and the quote was a few hundred dollars.
the8472 1y ago
If we're counting all the phases then european homes get 400V 3-phase, not 240V split-phase. Not that typical residential connections matter to highend servers.
- bonzini 1y ago
  It depends on the country, in many places independent houses get a single 230V phase only.