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Slight tangent: The enduring charm of "retro" games (whether actually old or just imitating old games) and the cults around old platforms, shows that there is s

Slight tangent: The enduring charm of "retro" games (whether actually old or just imitating old games) and the cults around old platforms, shows that there is some value in "constrained computing" environments. The PlayDate has also been moderately successful hasn't it? The constraints often seem to encourage increased creativity. Maybe partly because of the challenge of pushing those constraints, the level playing field (when competing vs all the other developers on such platforms), and/or the lack of "pressure" (i.e. you don't have to make a game that looks like the latest Unreal 69 tech demo or whatnot).. Maybe it's time for a new current-day platform that's similarly "constrained" on purpose? The capabilities of the DS seem like a sweet spot. Put it in a Switch form factor and throw in a Commodore 64-like OS, complete with Python or Lua or some other language that's easy to pick up and also relevant in the broader world.

Sesse__ 1y ago
> Maybe it's time for a new current-day platform that's similarly "constrained" on purpose? You have the fantasy consoles, where Pico-8 is probably the most well-known example.
extraisland 1y ago
Most of the charm of retro-computing is Nostalgia and yearning for the simplicity of older machines. I own two Amigas. The OS boots pretty quickly and you can start using your computer. Until the invention of NVMEs did I have a PC that would boot as quickly as the Amiga. There are no distractions when using the machine, no forced updates, no stupid notifications. It just works as a computer. I have a collection of Amiga, PS1, Dreamcast, PS2 and PS3 games. The games are relatively cheap and or free (a lot of games are abandonware or can be pirated without anyone really caring). Unlike a lot of modern titles are actual games. They are fun, pretty much just pop in the disk and play.
- garciansmith 1y ago
  A lot of it is nostalgia, but I know children who love old games that were made 20+ years before they were born, so it's not just that. As you said about your old games: "they are fun, pretty much just pop in the disk and play." There are plenty of great old games that are still good, even without certain modern conveniences and game design. Playing old stuff on original hardware is a bit different (especially computers, as you noted), and there nostalgia has a greater pull I think. But even then, to experience a game as it originally was, you need to resort to that hardware. I recently used a MiSTer to compare how games looked on a CRT and modern screen, and it was super interesting to see the differences (e.g., colors being more vivid on the LCD, but effects like glowing lights were only visible on the CRT).
  - extraisland 1y ago
    I honestly think a lot of the modern games (especially triple A), kinda miss the point. The gameplay just isn't there. A lot of the better indies are filling the gap though. I recently played the original PS1 version of Resident Evil 2. There is something about the game that the original missed. There was a bleakness throughout it that is kind of missed in the remake (the remake btw was very good). Also the CGI cutscenes on the games felt like a real treat at the time and they are not that long, just long enough to get the point across. RE2's intro is like a few minutes long, sets up the scenario and you are playing the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=748Tu4dUORE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=748Tu4dUORE The Ridge Racer 4 intro still holds up. I was gobsmacked at the time when I first saw this. It still looks pretty good despite the low resolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVIj0nIM7fk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVIj0nIM7fk
garciansmith 1y ago
I think constraints can bring about creativity. The Playdate is a good example, though it's extremely niche (they've sold what, 100,000 of them or something?). And it fits your description of a modern-day platform that's constrained in particular ways. It has been interesting to see the ways devs have used the system to make unique games unavailable on any other platform.
araes 1y ago
Partially the constraints. Building a functional, modern, 3D rendering engine that meets current gamer requirements for "good enough" is also extremely challenging, time consuming, expensive, error prone, and often frustrating. It then cascades into further difficulties about textures, modeling, rendering speed, machine requirements, compute language requirements, and "required" features. A lot of this arrives at the expense of story, game design, and art. If it must be c++, it must be AAA graphics (texture size, model polys, lighting complexity, shadows, physics based rendering), it must run 30 FPS on current mid-range, it must be trendy de-jour feature (open world, social tie-in, achievements, crafting, ect...), it must be always on networked, it must be cross platform, and it must be monetized - that's a lot of developers focusing on something other than - "is it fun?" That's a lot of talent acquisition and churn, that's a lot of collab / communication / meetings, that's a lot of development hardware, that's a lot of funding focusing on something other than - "is it fun?" It also ends up being a relatively severe barrier on "is it viable?" If it needs a million players just to break even, then you're quickly getting into the movie blockbuster pattern. Do whatever it is that sells blockbuster tickets. It it needs 50-100,000 players, then you can make a game with 5-10 people in a couple of years, sell it for $15, or something reasonable, and still break even on $75k salaries.

Sesse__ 1y ago

> Maybe it's time for a new current-day platform that's similarly "constrained" on purpose? You have the fantasy consoles, where Pico-8 is probably the most well-known example.

extraisland 1y ago

Most of the charm of retro-computing is Nostalgia and yearning for the simplicity of older machines. I own two Amigas. The OS boots pretty quickly and you can start using your computer. Until the invention of NVMEs did I have a PC that would boot as quickly as the Amiga. There are no distractions when using the machine, no forced updates, no stupid notifications. It just works as a computer. I have a collection of Amiga, PS1, Dreamcast, PS2 and PS3 games. The games are relatively cheap and or free (a lot of games are abandonware or can be pirated without anyone really caring). Unlike a lot of modern titles are actual games. They are fun, pretty much just pop in the disk and play.

garciansmith 1y ago
A lot of it is nostalgia, but I know children who love old games that were made 20+ years before they were born, so it's not just that. As you said about your old games: "they are fun, pretty much just pop in the disk and play." There are plenty of great old games that are still good, even without certain modern conveniences and game design. Playing old stuff on original hardware is a bit different (especially computers, as you noted), and there nostalgia has a greater pull I think. But even then, to experience a game as it originally was, you need to resort to that hardware. I recently used a MiSTer to compare how games looked on a CRT and modern screen, and it was super interesting to see the differences (e.g., colors being more vivid on the LCD, but effects like glowing lights were only visible on the CRT).
- extraisland 1y ago
  I honestly think a lot of the modern games (especially triple A), kinda miss the point. The gameplay just isn't there. A lot of the better indies are filling the gap though. I recently played the original PS1 version of Resident Evil 2. There is something about the game that the original missed. There was a bleakness throughout it that is kind of missed in the remake (the remake btw was very good). Also the CGI cutscenes on the games felt like a real treat at the time and they are not that long, just long enough to get the point across. RE2's intro is like a few minutes long, sets up the scenario and you are playing the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=748Tu4dUORE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=748Tu4dUORE The Ridge Racer 4 intro still holds up. I was gobsmacked at the time when I first saw this. It still looks pretty good despite the low resolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVIj0nIM7fk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVIj0nIM7fk

garciansmith 1y ago

I think constraints can bring about creativity. The Playdate is a good example, though it's extremely niche (they've sold what, 100,000 of them or something?). And it fits your description of a modern-day platform that's constrained in particular ways. It has been interesting to see the ways devs have used the system to make unique games unavailable on any other platform.

araes 1y ago

Partially the constraints. Building a functional, modern, 3D rendering engine that meets current gamer requirements for "good enough" is also extremely challenging, time consuming, expensive, error prone, and often frustrating. It then cascades into further difficulties about textures, modeling, rendering speed, machine requirements, compute language requirements, and "required" features. A lot of this arrives at the expense of story, game design, and art. If it must be c++, it must be AAA graphics (texture size, model polys, lighting complexity, shadows, physics based rendering), it must run 30 FPS on current mid-range, it must be trendy de-jour feature (open world, social tie-in, achievements, crafting, ect...), it must be always on networked, it must be cross platform, and it must be monetized - that's a lot of developers focusing on something other than - "is it fun?" That's a lot of talent acquisition and churn, that's a lot of collab / communication / meetings, that's a lot of development hardware, that's a lot of funding focusing on something other than - "is it fun?" It also ends up being a relatively severe barrier on "is it viable?" If it needs a million players just to break even, then you're quickly getting into the movie blockbuster pattern. Do whatever it is that sells blockbuster tickets. It it needs 50-100,000 players, then you can make a game with 5-10 people in a couple of years, sell it for $15, or something reasonable, and still break even on $75k salaries.