4 ms·

> Ad hominem attack - great. No, it was not. You moved the goal posts from artists deserving a livelihood to copyright issues, and I called you out for that.

by xscott 1y ago

> Ad hominem attack - great. No, it was not. You moved the goal posts from artists deserving a livelihood to copyright issues, and I called you out for that. > Note also that the kid didn't steal the books he learnt from..... I should note this? I explicitly stated it as part of the hypothetical. As I said above, there are already laws about copying. If you're sure they broke those laws, maybe you should criticize the powers that be for not enforcing them. > The question is what's happening fair and good for society I think this is a good question. Personally, I think the benefit from having automated tutors that are attentive and patient and can answer questions about almost any topic known to man dwarfs the benefit from defending intellectual property. I hope they get cheap enough to be accessible to every person who can't afford a traditional education and accurate enough that we trust them more than typical teachers (not a high bar, unfortunately). I donated to Wikipedia for years specifically because of its educational value while being freely available. Watching people I know learn from LLMs, and do useful interesting things with what they learned, I think the potential is much higher.

DrScientist 1y ago
> No, it was not. You moved the goal posts from artists deserving a livelihood to copyright issues, and I called you out for that. Nope. I never said artistic's deserve a living - I said that people deserve protection from their living being stolen via copyright violation. You are confusing what I said, to what you mistakenly understood. I don't understand why your original misunderstanding is somehow a character flaw of mine.
DrScientist 1y ago
>Personally, I think the benefit from having automated tutors that are attentive and patient and can answer questions about almost any topic known to man dwarfs the benefit from defending intellectual property. Why is it one or the other? Your argument is like saying we shouldn't pay nurses a fair wage because it get's in the way of great care for everyone. It's not an either/or situation - it's how you allocate rewards for the different contributions to the new tech. Currently tech companies are saying there is zero value in that training data - that's clearly not the case. I think I finally understand your misunderstanding - I'm not arguing AI should be banned as it destroys a musicians job because in the future all music will be AI generated. That's not my concern - I'm not saying anyone deserves a job in perpetuity. My point is simply that in building the models they have to respect the current laws - and that means respecting the content owners rights and either paying what they ask or not using it.
- xscott 1y ago
  > Why is it one or the other? Because that's how it works in reality. Once the copyright holders get their teeth in something, it gets paywalled. For instance, poor people don't have (free/legal/easy) access to lots of research papers/articles which were paid for with government grants. And copyright industry associations (MPAA, RIAA, CCC, AAP, ...) lobby to extend the laws so that creative works take lifetimes to enter the public domain. You think you're arguing in favor of the little guy who made a series of blog posts or digital art? That's naive. > My point is simply that in building the models they have to respect the current laws So go enforce those laws. The rent seekers will thank you.
  - DrScientist 1y ago
    > So go enforce those laws. The rent seekers will thank you. Seems you have bought into the idea idea that companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft are the poor little guys. Wow. What we are talking about here is certain companies trying to gain a defacto monopoly on the sum of human knowledge - without paying any of those people who built it in the first place. This is the real story. Now it may well be their moat isn't as big as they thought it was and the greedy investors trying to do this heist will fail - but that's what they are attempting - and you are cheer leading for it.
- xscott 1y ago
  > Your argument is like saying we shouldn't pay nurses a fair wage because it get's in the way of great care for everyone. This argument strategy, where you make a strained analogy/metaphor, and then apply it back to the original topic - it's fragile and depends on how comparable the two ideas are. If you're just interested in winning discussions, it's a bad tactic because it opens up a whole new avenue for your opponent to attack. Can I COPY nurses into equally valuable robots? Because if I can, then yeah - the world would be a MUCH better place with abundant and affordable nurse robots, and the human nurses can go find other jobs. I have some friends who are nurses, and after watching them fight with the medical system for their own health issues, I'm pretty sure they'd agree.
  - 1y ago

by xscott 1y ago

DrScientist 1y ago

> No, it was not. You moved the goal posts from artists deserving a livelihood to copyright issues, and I called you out for that. Nope. I never said artistic's deserve a living - I said that people deserve protection from their living being stolen via copyright violation. You are confusing what I said, to what you mistakenly understood. I don't understand why your original misunderstanding is somehow a character flaw of mine.

DrScientist 1y ago

>Personally, I think the benefit from having automated tutors that are attentive and patient and can answer questions about almost any topic known to man dwarfs the benefit from defending intellectual property. Why is it one or the other? Your argument is like saying we shouldn't pay nurses a fair wage because it get's in the way of great care for everyone. It's not an either/or situation - it's how you allocate rewards for the different contributions to the new tech. Currently tech companies are saying there is zero value in that training data - that's clearly not the case. I think I finally understand your misunderstanding - I'm not arguing AI should be banned as it destroys a musicians job because in the future all music will be AI generated. That's not my concern - I'm not saying anyone deserves a job in perpetuity. My point is simply that in building the models they have to respect the current laws - and that means respecting the content owners rights and either paying what they ask or not using it.

xscott 1y ago
> Why is it one or the other? Because that's how it works in reality. Once the copyright holders get their teeth in something, it gets paywalled. For instance, poor people don't have (free/legal/easy) access to lots of research papers/articles which were paid for with government grants. And copyright industry associations (MPAA, RIAA, CCC, AAP, ...) lobby to extend the laws so that creative works take lifetimes to enter the public domain. You think you're arguing in favor of the little guy who made a series of blog posts or digital art? That's naive. > My point is simply that in building the models they have to respect the current laws So go enforce those laws. The rent seekers will thank you.
- DrScientist 1y ago
  > So go enforce those laws. The rent seekers will thank you. Seems you have bought into the idea idea that companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft are the poor little guys. Wow. What we are talking about here is certain companies trying to gain a defacto monopoly on the sum of human knowledge - without paying any of those people who built it in the first place. This is the real story. Now it may well be their moat isn't as big as they thought it was and the greedy investors trying to do this heist will fail - but that's what they are attempting - and you are cheer leading for it.
xscott 1y ago
> Your argument is like saying we shouldn't pay nurses a fair wage because it get's in the way of great care for everyone. This argument strategy, where you make a strained analogy/metaphor, and then apply it back to the original topic - it's fragile and depends on how comparable the two ideas are. If you're just interested in winning discussions, it's a bad tactic because it opens up a whole new avenue for your opponent to attack. Can I COPY nurses into equally valuable robots? Because if I can, then yeah - the world would be a MUCH better place with abundant and affordable nurse robots, and the human nurses can go find other jobs. I have some friends who are nurses, and after watching them fight with the medical system for their own health issues, I'm pretty sure they'd agree.
- 1y ago