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Sorry I'm not sure I agree with this either. How does he have a choice to not pay taxes?

9rx 1y ago
1. How do you think taxes are paid, exactly, that removes choice? Certainly if you don't pay taxes you will be cut off from everything that taxes offer in return, so it is unlikely to be a choice you want to make, but we already went down that road of what happens if you give up on your end of the bargain. 2. Taxes aren't paid to a magical deity in the sky. It is merely a pool of resources shared by a community. How the resources are used are up to the community. The community equally expects a return on subsidies.
- chickenzzzzu 1y ago
  I don't exactly understand. If you don't pay taxes in the USA (as a normal every day person), you will literally be put into jail. If it is true what he is saying, that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > you will literally be put into jail. Sure. That's a pretty good way to ensure that you don't see the benefits if you don't contribute. At a national scale it is probably the only way to ensure it as it is pretty hard to keep tabs on someone otherwise. > that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me. He isn't forced to. He can remove himself from the community which he does not align with. Even better, he can work to reshape the community to fit his expectations. If the subsidy isn't working, he won't be alone in wanting change. No doubt the community is simply waiting for someone to stand up and resolve the matter. Things don't get fixed by way of magic. But being part of a community that sees a need for subsidies is part of the expected return on investment. The community wouldn't be what it is without those subsidies.
    - Ericson2314 1y ago
      I would have to leave America, become a citizen elsewhere, and renounce my American citizenship to avoid paying federal taxes.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        And if America wasn't working for you, you'd have already done it. You wouldn't be the first. In reality, you maintain ties because you see the value you get in return. But America isn't apt here anyway. In this case, it was said that it was a city that was offering the subsidy. It isn't unusual to leave a city when it isn't working for you. People leave the city they once called home every day because it no longer meets their needs. In fact, in many circles you are considered a bit of an odd-ball if you don't leave the place you call home from time to time in recognition that it is unlikely that the community you found yourself in (e.g. because you were born there) is the community that is actually right for you.
        Ericson2314 1y ago
        No the city does not choose to subsidize the suburbs. These decisions are not made at the city-level. (Not, to say, that I necessarily like the decisions that are made at the city-level either.) American state and local governance is generally pretty dogshit. But this is where I am from, and this is where most of the people that I know live, so...sucks. Just because those reasons (or "frictions", if you assume I could meet other people somewhere else just fine) lead me to stay (for now) doesn't mean that there are not real problems.
        9rx 1y ago
        > No the city does not choose to subsidize the suburbs. Cities do often subsidize suburbs by their own choice. Absent in this thread is exactly what subsidies are being discussed, of course. But either way, moving away from the city still removes one from the situation. It was made abundantly clear that it was the city offering the subsidy. Don't like the city, don't be there. Simple as that. > doesn't mean that there are not real problems. "If the subsidy isn't working, he won't be alone in wanting change. No doubt the community is simply waiting for someone to stand up and resolve the matter. Things don't get fixed by way of magic." If all of this is to say that the value you find in the subsidy is simply that it allows you to be lazy — to not have to do anything about it — that can certainly still be valuable. We're not here to judge what one finds valuable. But what is clear is that there is some kind of value that is recognized, but withheld from the reader. "I don't want to subsidize X" is a stupid statement without also "and I am willing to give up A, B, and C" for it to go. There isn't a person on earth who wants to give something in a vacuum.

9rx 1y ago

1. How do you think taxes are paid, exactly, that removes choice? Certainly if you don't pay taxes you will be cut off from everything that taxes offer in return, so it is unlikely to be a choice you want to make, but we already went down that road of what happens if you give up on your end of the bargain. 2. Taxes aren't paid to a magical deity in the sky. It is merely a pool of resources shared by a community. How the resources are used are up to the community. The community equally expects a return on subsidies.

chickenzzzzu 1y ago
I don't exactly understand. If you don't pay taxes in the USA (as a normal every day person), you will literally be put into jail. If it is true what he is saying, that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me.
- 9rx 1y ago
  > you will literally be put into jail. Sure. That's a pretty good way to ensure that you don't see the benefits if you don't contribute. At a national scale it is probably the only way to ensure it as it is pretty hard to keep tabs on someone otherwise. > that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me. He isn't forced to. He can remove himself from the community which he does not align with. Even better, he can work to reshape the community to fit his expectations. If the subsidy isn't working, he won't be alone in wanting change. No doubt the community is simply waiting for someone to stand up and resolve the matter. Things don't get fixed by way of magic. But being part of a community that sees a need for subsidies is part of the expected return on investment. The community wouldn't be what it is without those subsidies.
  - Ericson2314 1y ago
    I would have to leave America, become a citizen elsewhere, and renounce my American citizenship to avoid paying federal taxes.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      And if America wasn't working for you, you'd have already done it. You wouldn't be the first. In reality, you maintain ties because you see the value you get in return. But America isn't apt here anyway. In this case, it was said that it was a city that was offering the subsidy. It isn't unusual to leave a city when it isn't working for you. People leave the city they once called home every day because it no longer meets their needs. In fact, in many circles you are considered a bit of an odd-ball if you don't leave the place you call home from time to time in recognition that it is unlikely that the community you found yourself in (e.g. because you were born there) is the community that is actually right for you.
      - Ericson2314 1y ago
        No the city does not choose to subsidize the suburbs. These decisions are not made at the city-level. (Not, to say, that I necessarily like the decisions that are made at the city-level either.) American state and local governance is generally pretty dogshit. But this is where I am from, and this is where most of the people that I know live, so...sucks. Just because those reasons (or "frictions", if you assume I could meet other people somewhere else just fine) lead me to stay (for now) doesn't mean that there are not real problems.
        9rx 1y ago
        > No the city does not choose to subsidize the suburbs. Cities do often subsidize suburbs by their own choice. Absent in this thread is exactly what subsidies are being discussed, of course. But either way, moving away from the city still removes one from the situation. It was made abundantly clear that it was the city offering the subsidy. Don't like the city, don't be there. Simple as that. > doesn't mean that there are not real problems. "If the subsidy isn't working, he won't be alone in wanting change. No doubt the community is simply waiting for someone to stand up and resolve the matter. Things don't get fixed by way of magic." If all of this is to say that the value you find in the subsidy is simply that it allows you to be lazy — to not have to do anything about it — that can certainly still be valuable. We're not here to judge what one finds valuable. But what is clear is that there is some kind of value that is recognized, but withheld from the reader. "I don't want to subsidize X" is a stupid statement without also "and I am willing to give up A, B, and C" for it to go. There isn't a person on earth who wants to give something in a vacuum.