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Get excited, the world is gonna have less people! But the amount of population decline needed to give everyone American-style suburbs that are small enough to

Get excited, the world is gonna have less people! But the amount of population decline needed to give everyone American-style suburbs that are small enough to not have horrible commutes is....a lot. If you go to Europe, you can see ~5 story density is not loud, not smelly, and not dangerous though. It's also not dangerous in America either (but loudness and smells are problems because we're dumb as shit about these things). So I dunno, you do you, but I in the city don't wanna subsidize your coddling in the myriad ways I do today.

chickenzzzzu 1y ago
I would be very interested in hearing how you subsidize my lifestyle, and I will refrain from flippant attacks like "do you pay my mortgage" because it sounds like you are alleging there is some externality that I am producing that you are paying for. Regarding horrible commutes, I for one believe that it is the companies who demand in person work who are the ones who are being coddled here with transport infrastructure. In reality, we need a two speed road network-- one for seriously heavy trucking, and the other for bikes. I have no problem giving up my personal car, if that's the angle you are going to take.
- Ericson2314 1y ago
  > and I will refrain from flippant attacks like "do you pay my mortgage" Well to start with, have you heard of the Mortgage Interest Tax Deduction? I quite arguably do contribute to your mortgage! The actual answer is far more complex. https://www.strongtowns.org/ https://www.strongtowns.org/ has some info, though some of their stuff is debatable.
- yesfitz 1y ago
  Whatever the closest shared government you have pays more to provide services to sparsely-populated areas than densely-populated ones. But frequently, those governments do not charge people who live in sparsely-populated areas enough to cover those increased costs. For example, a mile of urban street/utilities might serve 40,000 people, while a mile of suburban street/utilities may serve 400. There's a decent amount of writing and videos on the subject, both for[1] and against[2]. The "for" arguments have convinced me because they use data and are presented by experts in urban planning and government, while the "against" arguments rely on appealing to principles/emotion and are frequently presented by politicians who treat the suggestion as a cultural threat. 1: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason... 2: https://www.rstreet.org/commentary/do-cities-really-subsidize-the-suburbs/ https://www.rstreet.org/commentary/do-cities-really-subsidiz...
  - chickenzzzzu 1y ago
    My reaction to this information is, anyone is welcome to build a city. I don't think the government should block you from it. I'll even pay part of my salary to keep you there. But do not come looking to me to adopt your way of life. Furthermore, if that means that you in turn shut off my sewer and electric and police and etc, I have absolutely no problem with that. Thanks to technology, it has never been easier for me to have my own self contained sewer, my own solar panels, my own well/water delivery. Yes you can say these things are inefficient, but as always life is a spectrum. Does your apartment have its own heat producing unit? Why aren't you using the soviet style centralized heat system that heats the whole town? They don't even have thermostats-- just open a window! Trust me, I don't want any of your hand outs, I'm sorry I receive them at all. And I'm sorry that SFH people mess up your zoning on purpose playing dirty politics games. I don't support any of that, and I'm happy to let my house drop in value. But my land is my land, and anything one inch outside of that is not.
9rx 1y ago
> I in the city don't wanna subsidize your coddling in the myriad ways I do today. Then stop...? Subsidies have an expected return on investment. If that isn't being realized, there is no reason for you to continue. I bet you won't, though. It is easy to say you don't want to give when it is nothing more than talk. Acting upon it, however, necessitates giving up what you get in return, and we both know you don't actually want to give that up.
- chickenzzzzu 1y ago
  Sorry I'm not sure I agree with this either. How does he have a choice to not pay taxes?
  - 9rx 1y ago
    1. How do you think taxes are paid, exactly, that removes choice? Certainly if you don't pay taxes you will be cut off from everything that taxes offer in return, so it is unlikely to be a choice you want to make, but we already went down that road of what happens if you give up on your end of the bargain. 2. Taxes aren't paid to a magical deity in the sky. It is merely a pool of resources shared by a community. How the resources are used are up to the community. The community equally expects a return on subsidies.
    - chickenzzzzu 1y ago
      I don't exactly understand. If you don't pay taxes in the USA (as a normal every day person), you will literally be put into jail. If it is true what he is saying, that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        > you will literally be put into jail. Sure. That's a pretty good way to ensure that you don't see the benefits if you don't contribute. At a national scale it is probably the only way to ensure it as it is pretty hard to keep tabs on someone otherwise. > that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me. He isn't forced to. He can remove himself from the community which he does not align with. Even better, he can work to reshape the community to fit his expectations. If the subsidy isn't working, he won't be alone in wanting change. No doubt the community is simply waiting for someone to stand up and resolve the matter. Things don't get fixed by way of magic. But being part of a community that sees a need for subsidies is part of the expected return on investment. The community wouldn't be what it is without those subsidies.

chickenzzzzu 1y ago

I would be very interested in hearing how you subsidize my lifestyle, and I will refrain from flippant attacks like "do you pay my mortgage" because it sounds like you are alleging there is some externality that I am producing that you are paying for. Regarding horrible commutes, I for one believe that it is the companies who demand in person work who are the ones who are being coddled here with transport infrastructure. In reality, we need a two speed road network-- one for seriously heavy trucking, and the other for bikes. I have no problem giving up my personal car, if that's the angle you are going to take.

Ericson2314 1y ago
> and I will refrain from flippant attacks like "do you pay my mortgage" Well to start with, have you heard of the Mortgage Interest Tax Deduction? I quite arguably do contribute to your mortgage! The actual answer is far more complex. https://www.strongtowns.org/ https://www.strongtowns.org/ has some info, though some of their stuff is debatable.
yesfitz 1y ago
Whatever the closest shared government you have pays more to provide services to sparsely-populated areas than densely-populated ones. But frequently, those governments do not charge people who live in sparsely-populated areas enough to cover those increased costs. For example, a mile of urban street/utilities might serve 40,000 people, while a mile of suburban street/utilities may serve 400. There's a decent amount of writing and videos on the subject, both for[1] and against[2]. The "for" arguments have convinced me because they use data and are presented by experts in urban planning and government, while the "against" arguments rely on appealing to principles/emotion and are frequently presented by politicians who treat the suggestion as a cultural threat. 1: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason... 2: https://www.rstreet.org/commentary/do-cities-really-subsidize-the-suburbs/ https://www.rstreet.org/commentary/do-cities-really-subsidiz...
- chickenzzzzu 1y ago
  My reaction to this information is, anyone is welcome to build a city. I don't think the government should block you from it. I'll even pay part of my salary to keep you there. But do not come looking to me to adopt your way of life. Furthermore, if that means that you in turn shut off my sewer and electric and police and etc, I have absolutely no problem with that. Thanks to technology, it has never been easier for me to have my own self contained sewer, my own solar panels, my own well/water delivery. Yes you can say these things are inefficient, but as always life is a spectrum. Does your apartment have its own heat producing unit? Why aren't you using the soviet style centralized heat system that heats the whole town? They don't even have thermostats-- just open a window! Trust me, I don't want any of your hand outs, I'm sorry I receive them at all. And I'm sorry that SFH people mess up your zoning on purpose playing dirty politics games. I don't support any of that, and I'm happy to let my house drop in value. But my land is my land, and anything one inch outside of that is not.

9rx 1y ago

> I in the city don't wanna subsidize your coddling in the myriad ways I do today. Then stop...? Subsidies have an expected return on investment. If that isn't being realized, there is no reason for you to continue. I bet you won't, though. It is easy to say you don't want to give when it is nothing more than talk. Acting upon it, however, necessitates giving up what you get in return, and we both know you don't actually want to give that up.

chickenzzzzu 1y ago
Sorry I'm not sure I agree with this either. How does he have a choice to not pay taxes?
- 9rx 1y ago
  1. How do you think taxes are paid, exactly, that removes choice? Certainly if you don't pay taxes you will be cut off from everything that taxes offer in return, so it is unlikely to be a choice you want to make, but we already went down that road of what happens if you give up on your end of the bargain. 2. Taxes aren't paid to a magical deity in the sky. It is merely a pool of resources shared by a community. How the resources are used are up to the community. The community equally expects a return on subsidies.
  - chickenzzzzu 1y ago
    I don't exactly understand. If you don't pay taxes in the USA (as a normal every day person), you will literally be put into jail. If it is true what he is saying, that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > you will literally be put into jail. Sure. That's a pretty good way to ensure that you don't see the benefits if you don't contribute. At a national scale it is probably the only way to ensure it as it is pretty hard to keep tabs on someone otherwise. > that his taxes subsidize my SFH lifestyle, then he is correct to say that he is tired of being forced to coddle me. He isn't forced to. He can remove himself from the community which he does not align with. Even better, he can work to reshape the community to fit his expectations. If the subsidy isn't working, he won't be alone in wanting change. No doubt the community is simply waiting for someone to stand up and resolve the matter. Things don't get fixed by way of magic. But being part of a community that sees a need for subsidies is part of the expected return on investment. The community wouldn't be what it is without those subsidies.