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As a longtime attendee myself, this is absolutely true. Also, DEFCON and DT specifically have not shifted anywhere. A large demographic of attendees shifted ha

As a longtime attendee myself, this is absolutely true. Also, DEFCON and DT specifically have not shifted anywhere. A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. They are also not "counterculture" as these are mainstream/televised points of view. I had to stop dealing with certain parts/people of DEFCON and infosec in general because of this intense noise. That's not pegging myself as being on the right, it's just that my DEFCON experience has always been about expanding my worldview and fun... this very loud and influential group isn't about either of those things.

mattmanser 1y ago
No where else in the world would describe anything in American politics as going hard left. All of your politics and news has been swinging hard right for over a decade.
StefanBatory 1y ago
If you don't mind, I have a genuine question. (as in, I'm not looking for a fight and I won't comment furthermore even if I can't agree.) But genuinely, what do you define by saying that American culture has shifted hard to the left and what do you define by left. I am really not looking into fight, but that's not a take I've heard often and I want to hear you out.
- anonym29 1y ago
  I am not the person you are responding to, but I think the ground reality is nuanced. What follows is my opinion / perspective, which I do not assert as irrefutable fact, nor as the only opinion / perspective which should be considered. Politics in the US have become more polarized, but a historical view shows this as more of a reversion to the mean than a novel phenomenon, as we are increasingly distanced from a period of greater economic prosperity for large swathes of the middle class, which seemed to have a (now disappearing) byproduct of a degree of psychological satiation with "big picture" concerns. There is a documented tendency for the political left, at least in the US, to accept and tolerate a much narrower range of thought, that is to say, the left has a much smaller Overton Window, than the political right in the US, who mostly seem unified only around opposition to the policies of the political left. (https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso.12665 https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....) I suspect, but do not necessary assert as fact, that the above effect on the left may be partially explained by a rigid adherence to the paradox of tolerance, which itself demands an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even if those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs to meaningfully practice intolerance. The end result, from my perspective as someone who fits cleanly in neither political camp (I'm more of a libertarian than anything else) is that the left makes little to no room for allies and increasingly engages in litmus testing with an end goal of ostracizing and socially shunning even LGBTQ+ people who don't fit neatly into the smaller Overton Window. As an example, it is considered intolerable by many on the left to merely be vocally supportive of adult LGBTQ+ rights, while expressing discomfort with the idea of children being exposed to pride parades with fully naked adults embracing all manner of sexual diversity and kinks, or discomfort with the idea of irreversible chemical gender affirmation therapy for minors on grounds of bodily autonomy / age of consent considerations. Meanwhile, to the surprise of some of my friends on the political left, large swathes of the political right (though not the most extreme fringes), in my lived experience as an LGBTQ person in Texas (which to be fair, may not be entirely representative of the rest of the country), hold more of a "live at let live" philosophy that, paradoxically, is more tolerant of LGBTQ+ persons with nuanced views than the political left is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) I think as the emotional investment of typical political partisans increases, there is a widespread perception of hostility or outrage from the political left at nuanced positions that are nominally but insufficiently progressive, like the one in the example above. Anecdata for this might include the perspective of Bill Maher, who was once considered to be subversively progressive, then gradually seen as "center left", and is now perceived by many on the left as "right of center", in spite of a rock-solid track record of being notably left of Republicans on almost every issue. To be clear, I'm not trying to assert normative views that either side is "right", morally superior or inferior to one another, just attempting to offer my perspective on what I think the underlying mechanisms driving the disconnect between perceptions of the political system itself (which is increasingly dominated by right-of-center figures in all three branches of the federal government, particularly at the SCOTUS level in the judiciary), and perceptions of cultural values. That cultural perception is probably further strengthened by widespread, rapid, and vocal adoption of DEI values across almost all institutional settings (academia, corporate America, public sector, even institutions that are traditionally conceptualized as right of center, like Wall Street firms) following the protests over the death of George Floyd; the relatively swift mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ+ rights (marriage equality went from fringe to mainstream in under two decades); climate change moved from "environmental issue" to a mainstream economic/social concern in roughly the same period; social media amplification of progressive voices and causes, including, at times; coordination between left-leaning administrations and social media companies to suppress right-leaning perspectives, some of which are now widely acknowledged to have likely been true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files), to name a few large changes over both the last two decades and the last five years or so. And again, I'm not asserting that any of these changes were good or bad (regardless of how I personally feel about any of the changes in question), nor am I trying to assert a normative framing one way or another, just attempting to dissect the mechanisms of the perception itself.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - yndoendo 1y ago
    When I think of the _Paradox of Tolerance_ I always think of Gödel's _incompleteness theorems_. Say you are restaurant owner that is tolerant of any consumer, it brings in money. Left, right, center, no matter the political spectrum; gay, straight, bisexual, no matter the sexuality. You provide them a good meal and they gladly pay. Now comes in a client and he starts trashing the place, tipping over tables, spitting in people's food. Do you stay tolerant and let it happen or brake your tolerance and deal with the situation and get him out? Your clients will no longer be tolerant of you and your business if you keep letting having is way. Reality, you have defined "tolerance of others" with axioms that they do not maliciously destroy the property in our restaurant and they don't spit in the food of your clients. _Paradox of Tolerance_ highly resembles an inconsistent formal system pertaining to the proof of tolerance. "Tolerance of others" is a constant formal system in order to be tolerant. Both you and your clients have agree upon definition of tolerance. It is the man destroying your property, you, and your clients that have differences in the definition of behavioral tolerance. The three do not share the same axioms. A universal definition of tolerance cannot be obtained. Tolerance is also contextual, based on set and setting; who else is around, making it a malleable definition. This means _tolerance_ is a set / highly parameterized function. Location of public or private is just one parameter of many. For instant the scenario above about the business would most likely be accept if the setting was on set for a scene in a move.
    - anonym29 1y ago
      The issue I think arrives when there is an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even when those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs - i.e. when the people with intolerant views are not actually practicing intolerance. It's one thing to shun a customer for practicing intolerance, it's another to shun a customer for holding intolerant beliefs without actually practicing intolerance or materially affecting the quality of life of anyone around them, is it not?
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Not the GP, but I feel the same. The reason is that my views haven't really changed, yet somehow my political positioning went from quite liberal to something most people, below a certain age, would consider conservative. I value: free speech, equality of opportunity, antiwar, anti political correctness, anti megacorp, and view the liberty of the individual mattering vastly more than than dictates of authority/hierarchy. More generally, I think politics has shifted such that left/right is no longer meaningful, as people tend to be much more split on libertarian/authoritarian world views - particularly on the degree to which accredited individuals ought be able to impose their views on society in an effort to 'tweak' people's behaviors. That nuance, more or less, immediately leads to the shifting winds on the issues I mentioned.
  - immibis 1y ago
    All the values you cited are so vague they can encompass almost any position. For example, "antiwar" can mean refusing to bomb other countries to get their resources and it can also mean that if another country threatens to bomb your house you give them whatever resources they want. Free speech can mean free to challenge the government, free to spam or free to brainwash. Liberty of the individual to shoot or liberty of the individual to not be shot? I suspect that your individual position within each of those axes has drastically changed even though the axis labels have not. "Left" and "right" remain meaningful. Right means supporting stronger hierarchies and left means supporting weaker hierarchies. They have always meant this since they were originally coined about the french pro/anti monarchist parties. It's "liberal" and "conservative" that have poorly defined meanings. You will not find much right at CCC. Scientific studies show a real difference in brain structure - the part of the brain that processes fear is bigger in rightists - so it appears to be an intrinsic evolutionary thing and it makes sense it remsins the same thing in each generation.
    - ghostpepper 1y ago
      > Scientific studies show a real difference in brain structure - rightists have enlarged fear centers - so it appears to be an intrinsic evolutionary difference and it makes sense it remains the same across time. can you point to a few studies on this topic? I am struggling to imagine how one would design a study to measure this
BLKNSLVR 1y ago
From what I see and hear, the US is moving to the left in a similar way to gravity lifting objects from the ground. As far as I can tell both sides have their intensely loud groups, but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. And that's OK, but slightly less OK if you're not aware of it.
- dmix 1y ago
  > but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. Maybe if you're talking about culture in general it will exist as some sort of U shape in general terms no doubt, but any hyper online subcultures turned into an IRL organization/insular collection of people like defcon is liable to go hard in identifiable directions which is distracting to more disinterested parties there for the original purpose of the show.
- joquarky 1y ago
  Anyone who can't find the extremists in their own group should spend some time on self reflection.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    That's a true thing, but nonsequitur from GP's comments.
- graemep 1y ago
  It can also depend on where you are and who you know. The groups are not evenly spread through society. In the UK and one side in politics dominates all my social circles - colleagues, people I went to school with, people I meet locally (to be fair, that does depend on what you do and who you meet - but I tend to "cultural" activities), people who share stuff on FB that I know (as opposed to the stuff in the feed - is which often ridiculously extreme both ways). it might not be true, and surveys and voting patterns say otherwise, but it can definitely feel like one side is dominant. It can definitely be true that a particular place/activity/group is dominated by one side, which is what GP seems to be claiming, rather than that the US in general has shifted to the left?
protocolture 1y ago
>A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. I had always identified hacker culture as principally left. Maybe the US is specifically different.
- vkou 1y ago
  Hacker culture is principally 'don't tell me what to do'. Which in the US puts it somewhat orthogonal to the left-right divide. It mirrors the divide on the public at large - a disappointingly large number of people are wildly ready to jump on the authoritarian bandwagon, because the alternative has a few leftist ideas that make them feel icky.
  - joquarky 1y ago
    If I had a debug console on reality, I'd be curious to query how big the intersection is between those who thrive in hacker culture and people with PDA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
    - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
      To me, the Wikipedia page of "Pathological demand avoidance" looks like those in power are again inventing some new psychological disorder to pathologize (and perhaps hospitalize) non-docile people.
    - Der_Einzige 1y ago
      I've been trying to figure out a name for whatever the heck the MC of this game had! Thank you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Insi...
  - graemep 1y ago
    Interesting. In the UK it tends to be right wing ideas people find icky about the alternative. Maybe one party on the left but it is really small. The problem here is that society and culture in general has got more authoritarian so it cut across the left-right divide (which IMO has got meaningless anyway since it no longer reflects a consistent difference in economic policy) but leaving the non-authoritarians practically without politically representation.
sitzkrieg 1y ago
been going since forever but dont tell anyone that asks. cant stand it anymore
msgodel 1y ago
Yeah that's the thing about counterculture, eventually large portions of it end up mainstream culture so if you like being contrarian you have to constantly be on the move.
int_19h 1y ago
Actual hard left (as opposed to milquetoast liberals calling themselves "democratic socialists") is most certainly not a mainstream or televised point of view.

mattmanser 1y ago

No where else in the world would describe anything in American politics as going hard left. All of your politics and news has been swinging hard right for over a decade.

StefanBatory 1y ago

If you don't mind, I have a genuine question. (as in, I'm not looking for a fight and I won't comment furthermore even if I can't agree.) But genuinely, what do you define by saying that American culture has shifted hard to the left and what do you define by left. I am really not looking into fight, but that's not a take I've heard often and I want to hear you out.

anonym29 1y ago
I am not the person you are responding to, but I think the ground reality is nuanced. What follows is my opinion / perspective, which I do not assert as irrefutable fact, nor as the only opinion / perspective which should be considered. Politics in the US have become more polarized, but a historical view shows this as more of a reversion to the mean than a novel phenomenon, as we are increasingly distanced from a period of greater economic prosperity for large swathes of the middle class, which seemed to have a (now disappearing) byproduct of a degree of psychological satiation with "big picture" concerns. There is a documented tendency for the political left, at least in the US, to accept and tolerate a much narrower range of thought, that is to say, the left has a much smaller Overton Window, than the political right in the US, who mostly seem unified only around opposition to the policies of the political left. (https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso.12665 https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....) I suspect, but do not necessary assert as fact, that the above effect on the left may be partially explained by a rigid adherence to the paradox of tolerance, which itself demands an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even if those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs to meaningfully practice intolerance. The end result, from my perspective as someone who fits cleanly in neither political camp (I'm more of a libertarian than anything else) is that the left makes little to no room for allies and increasingly engages in litmus testing with an end goal of ostracizing and socially shunning even LGBTQ+ people who don't fit neatly into the smaller Overton Window. As an example, it is considered intolerable by many on the left to merely be vocally supportive of adult LGBTQ+ rights, while expressing discomfort with the idea of children being exposed to pride parades with fully naked adults embracing all manner of sexual diversity and kinks, or discomfort with the idea of irreversible chemical gender affirmation therapy for minors on grounds of bodily autonomy / age of consent considerations. Meanwhile, to the surprise of some of my friends on the political left, large swathes of the political right (though not the most extreme fringes), in my lived experience as an LGBTQ person in Texas (which to be fair, may not be entirely representative of the rest of the country), hold more of a "live at let live" philosophy that, paradoxically, is more tolerant of LGBTQ+ persons with nuanced views than the political left is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) I think as the emotional investment of typical political partisans increases, there is a widespread perception of hostility or outrage from the political left at nuanced positions that are nominally but insufficiently progressive, like the one in the example above. Anecdata for this might include the perspective of Bill Maher, who was once considered to be subversively progressive, then gradually seen as "center left", and is now perceived by many on the left as "right of center", in spite of a rock-solid track record of being notably left of Republicans on almost every issue. To be clear, I'm not trying to assert normative views that either side is "right", morally superior or inferior to one another, just attempting to offer my perspective on what I think the underlying mechanisms driving the disconnect between perceptions of the political system itself (which is increasingly dominated by right-of-center figures in all three branches of the federal government, particularly at the SCOTUS level in the judiciary), and perceptions of cultural values. That cultural perception is probably further strengthened by widespread, rapid, and vocal adoption of DEI values across almost all institutional settings (academia, corporate America, public sector, even institutions that are traditionally conceptualized as right of center, like Wall Street firms) following the protests over the death of George Floyd; the relatively swift mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ+ rights (marriage equality went from fringe to mainstream in under two decades); climate change moved from "environmental issue" to a mainstream economic/social concern in roughly the same period; social media amplification of progressive voices and causes, including, at times; coordination between left-leaning administrations and social media companies to suppress right-leaning perspectives, some of which are now widely acknowledged to have likely been true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files), to name a few large changes over both the last two decades and the last five years or so. And again, I'm not asserting that any of these changes were good or bad (regardless of how I personally feel about any of the changes in question), nor am I trying to assert a normative framing one way or another, just attempting to dissect the mechanisms of the perception itself.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- yndoendo 1y ago
  When I think of the _Paradox of Tolerance_ I always think of Gödel's _incompleteness theorems_. Say you are restaurant owner that is tolerant of any consumer, it brings in money. Left, right, center, no matter the political spectrum; gay, straight, bisexual, no matter the sexuality. You provide them a good meal and they gladly pay. Now comes in a client and he starts trashing the place, tipping over tables, spitting in people's food. Do you stay tolerant and let it happen or brake your tolerance and deal with the situation and get him out? Your clients will no longer be tolerant of you and your business if you keep letting having is way. Reality, you have defined "tolerance of others" with axioms that they do not maliciously destroy the property in our restaurant and they don't spit in the food of your clients. _Paradox of Tolerance_ highly resembles an inconsistent formal system pertaining to the proof of tolerance. "Tolerance of others" is a constant formal system in order to be tolerant. Both you and your clients have agree upon definition of tolerance. It is the man destroying your property, you, and your clients that have differences in the definition of behavioral tolerance. The three do not share the same axioms. A universal definition of tolerance cannot be obtained. Tolerance is also contextual, based on set and setting; who else is around, making it a malleable definition. This means _tolerance_ is a set / highly parameterized function. Location of public or private is just one parameter of many. For instant the scenario above about the business would most likely be accept if the setting was on set for a scene in a move.
  - anonym29 1y ago
    The issue I think arrives when there is an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even when those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs - i.e. when the people with intolerant views are not actually practicing intolerance. It's one thing to shun a customer for practicing intolerance, it's another to shun a customer for holding intolerant beliefs without actually practicing intolerance or materially affecting the quality of life of anyone around them, is it not?
somenameforme 1y ago
Not the GP, but I feel the same. The reason is that my views haven't really changed, yet somehow my political positioning went from quite liberal to something most people, below a certain age, would consider conservative. I value: free speech, equality of opportunity, antiwar, anti political correctness, anti megacorp, and view the liberty of the individual mattering vastly more than than dictates of authority/hierarchy. More generally, I think politics has shifted such that left/right is no longer meaningful, as people tend to be much more split on libertarian/authoritarian world views - particularly on the degree to which accredited individuals ought be able to impose their views on society in an effort to 'tweak' people's behaviors. That nuance, more or less, immediately leads to the shifting winds on the issues I mentioned.
- immibis 1y ago
  All the values you cited are so vague they can encompass almost any position. For example, "antiwar" can mean refusing to bomb other countries to get their resources and it can also mean that if another country threatens to bomb your house you give them whatever resources they want. Free speech can mean free to challenge the government, free to spam or free to brainwash. Liberty of the individual to shoot or liberty of the individual to not be shot? I suspect that your individual position within each of those axes has drastically changed even though the axis labels have not. "Left" and "right" remain meaningful. Right means supporting stronger hierarchies and left means supporting weaker hierarchies. They have always meant this since they were originally coined about the french pro/anti monarchist parties. It's "liberal" and "conservative" that have poorly defined meanings. You will not find much right at CCC. Scientific studies show a real difference in brain structure - the part of the brain that processes fear is bigger in rightists - so it appears to be an intrinsic evolutionary thing and it makes sense it remsins the same thing in each generation.
  - ghostpepper 1y ago
    > Scientific studies show a real difference in brain structure - rightists have enlarged fear centers - so it appears to be an intrinsic evolutionary difference and it makes sense it remains the same across time. can you point to a few studies on this topic? I am struggling to imagine how one would design a study to measure this

BLKNSLVR 1y ago

From what I see and hear, the US is moving to the left in a similar way to gravity lifting objects from the ground. As far as I can tell both sides have their intensely loud groups, but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. And that's OK, but slightly less OK if you're not aware of it.

dmix 1y ago
> but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. Maybe if you're talking about culture in general it will exist as some sort of U shape in general terms no doubt, but any hyper online subcultures turned into an IRL organization/insular collection of people like defcon is liable to go hard in identifiable directions which is distracting to more disinterested parties there for the original purpose of the show.
joquarky 1y ago
Anyone who can't find the extremists in their own group should spend some time on self reflection.
- jvanderbot 1y ago
  That's a true thing, but nonsequitur from GP's comments.
graemep 1y ago
It can also depend on where you are and who you know. The groups are not evenly spread through society. In the UK and one side in politics dominates all my social circles - colleagues, people I went to school with, people I meet locally (to be fair, that does depend on what you do and who you meet - but I tend to "cultural" activities), people who share stuff on FB that I know (as opposed to the stuff in the feed - is which often ridiculously extreme both ways). it might not be true, and surveys and voting patterns say otherwise, but it can definitely feel like one side is dominant. It can definitely be true that a particular place/activity/group is dominated by one side, which is what GP seems to be claiming, rather than that the US in general has shifted to the left?

protocolture 1y ago

>A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. I had always identified hacker culture as principally left. Maybe the US is specifically different.

vkou 1y ago
Hacker culture is principally 'don't tell me what to do'. Which in the US puts it somewhat orthogonal to the left-right divide. It mirrors the divide on the public at large - a disappointingly large number of people are wildly ready to jump on the authoritarian bandwagon, because the alternative has a few leftist ideas that make them feel icky.
- joquarky 1y ago
  If I had a debug console on reality, I'd be curious to query how big the intersection is between those who thrive in hacker culture and people with PDA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    To me, the Wikipedia page of "Pathological demand avoidance" looks like those in power are again inventing some new psychological disorder to pathologize (and perhaps hospitalize) non-docile people.
  - Der_Einzige 1y ago
    I've been trying to figure out a name for whatever the heck the MC of this game had! Thank you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Insi...
- graemep 1y ago
  Interesting. In the UK it tends to be right wing ideas people find icky about the alternative. Maybe one party on the left but it is really small. The problem here is that society and culture in general has got more authoritarian so it cut across the left-right divide (which IMO has got meaningless anyway since it no longer reflects a consistent difference in economic policy) but leaving the non-authoritarians practically without politically representation.

sitzkrieg 1y ago

been going since forever but dont tell anyone that asks. cant stand it anymore

msgodel 1y ago

Yeah that's the thing about counterculture, eventually large portions of it end up mainstream culture so if you like being contrarian you have to constantly be on the move.

int_19h 1y ago

Actual hard left (as opposed to milquetoast liberals calling themselves "democratic socialists") is most certainly not a mainstream or televised point of view.