11 ms·

This was my 23rd DEFCON, and was just as counterculture as it was decades ago if you know where to go, and don't get distracted by the big pretty signs. DEFCON

by px43 1y ago

This was my 23rd DEFCON, and was just as counterculture as it was decades ago if you know where to go, and don't get distracted by the big pretty signs. DEFCON has always been about feds, policymakers, corpos, kids, and straight up black hat criminals partying together and shaping the future of infosec. The author of the article decided to wander down the Military Industrial Complex track, and seems to be complaining that it had too much Army stuff. I didn't see any of that this year, because that's not what interests me. I met up with a large number of cipherpunks and activists that I don't get to see very often, and had some extremly productive conversations regarding various projects we're working on for the next year.

busterarm 1y ago
As a longtime attendee myself, this is absolutely true. Also, DEFCON and DT specifically have not shifted anywhere. A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. They are also not "counterculture" as these are mainstream/televised points of view. I had to stop dealing with certain parts/people of DEFCON and infosec in general because of this intense noise. That's not pegging myself as being on the right, it's just that my DEFCON experience has always been about expanding my worldview and fun... this very loud and influential group isn't about either of those things.
- mattmanser 1y ago
  No where else in the world would describe anything in American politics as going hard left. All of your politics and news has been swinging hard right for over a decade.
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  If you don't mind, I have a genuine question. (as in, I'm not looking for a fight and I won't comment furthermore even if I can't agree.) But genuinely, what do you define by saying that American culture has shifted hard to the left and what do you define by left. I am really not looking into fight, but that's not a take I've heard often and I want to hear you out.
  - anonym29 1y ago
    I am not the person you are responding to, but I think the ground reality is nuanced. What follows is my opinion / perspective, which I do not assert as irrefutable fact, nor as the only opinion / perspective which should be considered. Politics in the US have become more polarized, but a historical view shows this as more of a reversion to the mean than a novel phenomenon, as we are increasingly distanced from a period of greater economic prosperity for large swathes of the middle class, which seemed to have a (now disappearing) byproduct of a degree of psychological satiation with "big picture" concerns. There is a documented tendency for the political left, at least in the US, to accept and tolerate a much narrower range of thought, that is to say, the left has a much smaller Overton Window, than the political right in the US, who mostly seem unified only around opposition to the policies of the political left. (https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso.12665 https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....) I suspect, but do not necessary assert as fact, that the above effect on the left may be partially explained by a rigid adherence to the paradox of tolerance, which itself demands an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even if those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs to meaningfully practice intolerance. The end result, from my perspective as someone who fits cleanly in neither political camp (I'm more of a libertarian than anything else) is that the left makes little to no room for allies and increasingly engages in litmus testing with an end goal of ostracizing and socially shunning even LGBTQ+ people who don't fit neatly into the smaller Overton Window. As an example, it is considered intolerable by many on the left to merely be vocally supportive of adult LGBTQ+ rights, while expressing discomfort with the idea of children being exposed to pride parades with fully naked adults embracing all manner of sexual diversity and kinks, or discomfort with the idea of irreversible chemical gender affirmation therapy for minors on grounds of bodily autonomy / age of consent considerations. Meanwhile, to the surprise of some of my friends on the political left, large swathes of the political right (though not the most extreme fringes), in my lived experience as an LGBTQ person in Texas (which to be fair, may not be entirely representative of the rest of the country), hold more of a "live at let live" philosophy that, paradoxically, is more tolerant of LGBTQ+ persons with nuanced views than the political left is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) I think as the emotional investment of typical political partisans increases, there is a widespread perception of hostility or outrage from the political left at nuanced positions that are nominally but insufficiently progressive, like the one in the example above. Anecdata for this might include the perspective of Bill Maher, who was once considered to be subversively progressive, then gradually seen as "center left", and is now perceived by many on the left as "right of center", in spite of a rock-solid track record of being notably left of Republicans on almost every issue. To be clear, I'm not trying to assert normative views that either side is "right", morally superior or inferior to one another, just attempting to offer my perspective on what I think the underlying mechanisms driving the disconnect between perceptions of the political system itself (which is increasingly dominated by right-of-center figures in all three branches of the federal government, particularly at the SCOTUS level in the judiciary), and perceptions of cultural values. That cultural perception is probably further strengthened by widespread, rapid, and vocal adoption of DEI values across almost all institutional settings (academia, corporate America, public sector, even institutions that are traditionally conceptualized as right of center, like Wall Street firms) following the protests over the death of George Floyd; the relatively swift mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ+ rights (marriage equality went from fringe to mainstream in under two decades); climate change moved from "environmental issue" to a mainstream economic/social concern in roughly the same period; social media amplification of progressive voices and causes, including, at times; coordination between left-leaning administrations and social media companies to suppress right-leaning perspectives, some of which are now widely acknowledged to have likely been true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files), to name a few large changes over both the last two decades and the last five years or so. And again, I'm not asserting that any of these changes were good or bad (regardless of how I personally feel about any of the changes in question), nor am I trying to assert a normative framing one way or another, just attempting to dissect the mechanisms of the perception itself.
- BLKNSLVR 1y ago
  From what I see and hear, the US is moving to the left in a similar way to gravity lifting objects from the ground. As far as I can tell both sides have their intensely loud groups, but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. And that's OK, but slightly less OK if you're not aware of it.
  - dmix 1y ago
    > but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. Maybe if you're talking about culture in general it will exist as some sort of U shape in general terms no doubt, but any hyper online subcultures turned into an IRL organization/insular collection of people like defcon is liable to go hard in identifiable directions which is distracting to more disinterested parties there for the original purpose of the show.
  - joquarky 1y ago
    Anyone who can't find the extremists in their own group should spend some time on self reflection.
    - jvanderbot 1y ago
      That's a true thing, but nonsequitur from GP's comments.
  - graemep 1y ago
    It can also depend on where you are and who you know. The groups are not evenly spread through society. In the UK and one side in politics dominates all my social circles - colleagues, people I went to school with, people I meet locally (to be fair, that does depend on what you do and who you meet - but I tend to "cultural" activities), people who share stuff on FB that I know (as opposed to the stuff in the feed - is which often ridiculously extreme both ways). it might not be true, and surveys and voting patterns say otherwise, but it can definitely feel like one side is dominant. It can definitely be true that a particular place/activity/group is dominated by one side, which is what GP seems to be claiming, rather than that the US in general has shifted to the left?
- protocolture 1y ago
  >A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. I had always identified hacker culture as principally left. Maybe the US is specifically different.
  - vkou 1y ago
    Hacker culture is principally 'don't tell me what to do'. Which in the US puts it somewhat orthogonal to the left-right divide. It mirrors the divide on the public at large - a disappointingly large number of people are wildly ready to jump on the authoritarian bandwagon, because the alternative has a few leftist ideas that make them feel icky.
    - joquarky 1y ago
      If I had a debug console on reality, I'd be curious to query how big the intersection is between those who thrive in hacker culture and people with PDA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
      - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
        To me, the Wikipedia page of "Pathological demand avoidance" looks like those in power are again inventing some new psychological disorder to pathologize (and perhaps hospitalize) non-docile people.
      - Der_Einzige 1y ago
        I've been trying to figure out a name for whatever the heck the MC of this game had! Thank you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Insi...
    - graemep 1y ago
      Interesting. In the UK it tends to be right wing ideas people find icky about the alternative. Maybe one party on the left but it is really small. The problem here is that society and culture in general has got more authoritarian so it cut across the left-right divide (which IMO has got meaningless anyway since it no longer reflects a consistent difference in economic policy) but leaving the non-authoritarians practically without politically representation.
- sitzkrieg 1y ago
  been going since forever but dont tell anyone that asks. cant stand it anymore
- msgodel 1y ago
  Yeah that's the thing about counterculture, eventually large portions of it end up mainstream culture so if you like being contrarian you have to constantly be on the move.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Actual hard left (as opposed to milquetoast liberals calling themselves "democratic socialists") is most certainly not a mainstream or televised point of view.
tucnak 1y ago
Kool-Aid man lives in the world of corporate logos...
Palomides 1y ago
"it's counterculture if you ignore all the military/mass surveillance stuff" doesn't strike me as a strong defense
- giantg2 1y ago
  If that's your mindset, the internet must be similarly disappointing to you. In either domain, you can select where you want to go and what you want to do.
  - monocasa 1y ago
    The difference being that I don't think anyone in their right mind would declare the internet as a whole as counterculture in the first place anymore.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      This goes for Defcon in my opinion too
      - monocasa 1y ago
        I think it's fair for someone to have the impression that defcon is a predominantly counter culture space, even if it really isn't.
  - overfeed 1y ago
    > In either domain, you can select where you want to go and what you want to do. In both cases, there was a time when both were exclusively people-powered and "the man" was entirely absent. "There are some authentic nuggets if you know where to go" are the last kicks of a fast-gentrifying neighborhood, to use mixed metaphors. In the past anywhere/everywhere you could go was authentic.
    - zevon 1y ago
      I'm curious to lern when this phase of absence of the man and its entities - like publicly funded agencies and labs and suchlike - from the internet happened and how?
iwontberude 1y ago
Feds and criminals coming together is the point for many clandestine operations
- Scrounger 1y ago
  > Feds and criminals How does one tell the difference?
  - PieTime 1y ago
    One faces consequences when breaking the law, the other is tasked with breaking the law in the name of upholding it
    - actionfromafar 1y ago
      The new administration efficiently makes no such distinction.
lucasRW 1y ago
Yeah... shots of water is as "counter-culture" as it gets...
jvanderbot 1y ago
I'd love to go to defcon, but I fear it'll end up like every other conference I go to: wandering around, watching a few talks, ending up at a few semi-boring cocktail hours, etc. Maybe I'm that anti-cool enough to get auto-filtered? I joined a local discord / defcon chapter, and it was mostly reminiscing about the good old days and most people saying they weren't going this year.
- jszymborski 1y ago
  I went maybe 7 years back as an undergrad doing a biochemistry degree and met plenty of cool people both on the con floor and at random parties. People were generally super friendly and willing to hang and chat.
- busterarm 1y ago
  Find a village or contest that matches your interests, spend the whole weekend there and you will have an incredible experience.

by px43 1y ago

busterarm 1y ago

As a longtime attendee myself, this is absolutely true. Also, DEFCON and DT specifically have not shifted anywhere. A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. They are also not "counterculture" as these are mainstream/televised points of view. I had to stop dealing with certain parts/people of DEFCON and infosec in general because of this intense noise. That's not pegging myself as being on the right, it's just that my DEFCON experience has always been about expanding my worldview and fun... this very loud and influential group isn't about either of those things.

mattmanser 1y ago
No where else in the world would describe anything in American politics as going hard left. All of your politics and news has been swinging hard right for over a decade.
StefanBatory 1y ago
If you don't mind, I have a genuine question. (as in, I'm not looking for a fight and I won't comment furthermore even if I can't agree.) But genuinely, what do you define by saying that American culture has shifted hard to the left and what do you define by left. I am really not looking into fight, but that's not a take I've heard often and I want to hear you out.
- anonym29 1y ago
  I am not the person you are responding to, but I think the ground reality is nuanced. What follows is my opinion / perspective, which I do not assert as irrefutable fact, nor as the only opinion / perspective which should be considered. Politics in the US have become more polarized, but a historical view shows this as more of a reversion to the mean than a novel phenomenon, as we are increasingly distanced from a period of greater economic prosperity for large swathes of the middle class, which seemed to have a (now disappearing) byproduct of a degree of psychological satiation with "big picture" concerns. There is a documented tendency for the political left, at least in the US, to accept and tolerate a much narrower range of thought, that is to say, the left has a much smaller Overton Window, than the political right in the US, who mostly seem unified only around opposition to the policies of the political left. (https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso.12665 https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....) I suspect, but do not necessary assert as fact, that the above effect on the left may be partially explained by a rigid adherence to the paradox of tolerance, which itself demands an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even if those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs to meaningfully practice intolerance. The end result, from my perspective as someone who fits cleanly in neither political camp (I'm more of a libertarian than anything else) is that the left makes little to no room for allies and increasingly engages in litmus testing with an end goal of ostracizing and socially shunning even LGBTQ+ people who don't fit neatly into the smaller Overton Window. As an example, it is considered intolerable by many on the left to merely be vocally supportive of adult LGBTQ+ rights, while expressing discomfort with the idea of children being exposed to pride parades with fully naked adults embracing all manner of sexual diversity and kinks, or discomfort with the idea of irreversible chemical gender affirmation therapy for minors on grounds of bodily autonomy / age of consent considerations. Meanwhile, to the surprise of some of my friends on the political left, large swathes of the political right (though not the most extreme fringes), in my lived experience as an LGBTQ person in Texas (which to be fair, may not be entirely representative of the rest of the country), hold more of a "live at let live" philosophy that, paradoxically, is more tolerant of LGBTQ+ persons with nuanced views than the political left is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) I think as the emotional investment of typical political partisans increases, there is a widespread perception of hostility or outrage from the political left at nuanced positions that are nominally but insufficiently progressive, like the one in the example above. Anecdata for this might include the perspective of Bill Maher, who was once considered to be subversively progressive, then gradually seen as "center left", and is now perceived by many on the left as "right of center", in spite of a rock-solid track record of being notably left of Republicans on almost every issue. To be clear, I'm not trying to assert normative views that either side is "right", morally superior or inferior to one another, just attempting to offer my perspective on what I think the underlying mechanisms driving the disconnect between perceptions of the political system itself (which is increasingly dominated by right-of-center figures in all three branches of the federal government, particularly at the SCOTUS level in the judiciary), and perceptions of cultural values. That cultural perception is probably further strengthened by widespread, rapid, and vocal adoption of DEI values across almost all institutional settings (academia, corporate America, public sector, even institutions that are traditionally conceptualized as right of center, like Wall Street firms) following the protests over the death of George Floyd; the relatively swift mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ+ rights (marriage equality went from fringe to mainstream in under two decades); climate change moved from "environmental issue" to a mainstream economic/social concern in roughly the same period; social media amplification of progressive voices and causes, including, at times; coordination between left-leaning administrations and social media companies to suppress right-leaning perspectives, some of which are now widely acknowledged to have likely been true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files), to name a few large changes over both the last two decades and the last five years or so. And again, I'm not asserting that any of these changes were good or bad (regardless of how I personally feel about any of the changes in question), nor am I trying to assert a normative framing one way or another, just attempting to dissect the mechanisms of the perception itself.
BLKNSLVR 1y ago
From what I see and hear, the US is moving to the left in a similar way to gravity lifting objects from the ground. As far as I can tell both sides have their intensely loud groups, but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. And that's OK, but slightly less OK if you're not aware of it.
- dmix 1y ago
  > but only noticing one means you're closer (by varying degrees) to the other. Maybe if you're talking about culture in general it will exist as some sort of U shape in general terms no doubt, but any hyper online subcultures turned into an IRL organization/insular collection of people like defcon is liable to go hard in identifiable directions which is distracting to more disinterested parties there for the original purpose of the show.
- joquarky 1y ago
  Anyone who can't find the extremists in their own group should spend some time on self reflection.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    That's a true thing, but nonsequitur from GP's comments.
- graemep 1y ago
  It can also depend on where you are and who you know. The groups are not evenly spread through society. In the UK and one side in politics dominates all my social circles - colleagues, people I went to school with, people I meet locally (to be fair, that does depend on what you do and who you meet - but I tend to "cultural" activities), people who share stuff on FB that I know (as opposed to the stuff in the feed - is which often ridiculously extreme both ways). it might not be true, and surveys and voting patterns say otherwise, but it can definitely feel like one side is dominant. It can definitely be true that a particular place/activity/group is dominated by one side, which is what GP seems to be claiming, rather than that the US in general has shifted to the left?
protocolture 1y ago
>A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. I had always identified hacker culture as principally left. Maybe the US is specifically different.
- vkou 1y ago
  Hacker culture is principally 'don't tell me what to do'. Which in the US puts it somewhat orthogonal to the left-right divide. It mirrors the divide on the public at large - a disappointingly large number of people are wildly ready to jump on the authoritarian bandwagon, because the alternative has a few leftist ideas that make them feel icky.
  - joquarky 1y ago
    If I had a debug console on reality, I'd be curious to query how big the intersection is between those who thrive in hacker culture and people with PDA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
    - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
      To me, the Wikipedia page of "Pathological demand avoidance" looks like those in power are again inventing some new psychological disorder to pathologize (and perhaps hospitalize) non-docile people.
    - Der_Einzige 1y ago
      I've been trying to figure out a name for whatever the heck the MC of this game had! Thank you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_Inside_a_Bag_of_Milk_Insi...
  - graemep 1y ago
    Interesting. In the UK it tends to be right wing ideas people find icky about the alternative. Maybe one party on the left but it is really small. The problem here is that society and culture in general has got more authoritarian so it cut across the left-right divide (which IMO has got meaningless anyway since it no longer reflects a consistent difference in economic policy) but leaving the non-authoritarians practically without politically representation.
sitzkrieg 1y ago
been going since forever but dont tell anyone that asks. cant stand it anymore
msgodel 1y ago
Yeah that's the thing about counterculture, eventually large portions of it end up mainstream culture so if you like being contrarian you have to constantly be on the move.
int_19h 1y ago
Actual hard left (as opposed to milquetoast liberals calling themselves "democratic socialists") is most certainly not a mainstream or televised point of view.

tucnak 1y ago

Kool-Aid man lives in the world of corporate logos...

Palomides 1y ago

"it's counterculture if you ignore all the military/mass surveillance stuff" doesn't strike me as a strong defense

giantg2 1y ago
If that's your mindset, the internet must be similarly disappointing to you. In either domain, you can select where you want to go and what you want to do.
- monocasa 1y ago
  The difference being that I don't think anyone in their right mind would declare the internet as a whole as counterculture in the first place anymore.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    This goes for Defcon in my opinion too
    - monocasa 1y ago
      I think it's fair for someone to have the impression that defcon is a predominantly counter culture space, even if it really isn't.
- overfeed 1y ago
  > In either domain, you can select where you want to go and what you want to do. In both cases, there was a time when both were exclusively people-powered and "the man" was entirely absent. "There are some authentic nuggets if you know where to go" are the last kicks of a fast-gentrifying neighborhood, to use mixed metaphors. In the past anywhere/everywhere you could go was authentic.
  - zevon 1y ago
    I'm curious to lern when this phase of absence of the man and its entities - like publicly funded agencies and labs and suchlike - from the internet happened and how?

iwontberude 1y ago

Feds and criminals coming together is the point for many clandestine operations

Scrounger 1y ago
> Feds and criminals How does one tell the difference?
- PieTime 1y ago
  One faces consequences when breaking the law, the other is tasked with breaking the law in the name of upholding it
  - actionfromafar 1y ago
    The new administration efficiently makes no such distinction.

lucasRW 1y ago

Yeah... shots of water is as "counter-culture" as it gets...

jvanderbot 1y ago

I'd love to go to defcon, but I fear it'll end up like every other conference I go to: wandering around, watching a few talks, ending up at a few semi-boring cocktail hours, etc. Maybe I'm that anti-cool enough to get auto-filtered? I joined a local discord / defcon chapter, and it was mostly reminiscing about the good old days and most people saying they weren't going this year.

jszymborski 1y ago
I went maybe 7 years back as an undergrad doing a biochemistry degree and met plenty of cool people both on the con floor and at random parties. People were generally super friendly and willing to hang and chat.
busterarm 1y ago
Find a village or contest that matches your interests, spend the whole weekend there and you will have an incredible experience.