4 ms·

We're speaking from different cultural backgrounds here, clearly. In Norway, trans was never part of the gay and lesbian movement. Even bi -- where I fall -- h

We're speaking from different cultural backgrounds here, clearly. In Norway, trans was never part of the gay and lesbian movement. Even bi -- where I fall -- have traditionally been outcasts, often jokingly (or not) described as "the fence sitters". I fall into this category, where given said "fence sitting" I was lucky in that I never felt a need to "come out" because I would just date girls and carefully approach my attraction towards guys. But for a lot of personal experiences it also meant I never quite felt I belonged because I was not gay, nor was I like the majority and completely straight. The gays didn't like "people like me" who "couldn't decide" (something I've heard often, and keep hearing). Trans just has never been a thing culturally here. For one because we have strict laws of medical interventions on underage people, so the so-called "gender-affirming care" situation has not yet hit us. And most people don't feel this way when they reach adulthood, as it's _typically_ a part of puberty. Not to say gender dysphoria doesn't exist, but there's also no actual solution to it right now. You cannot transition from female sexual organs to functional male ones, nor vice versa. We're not there yet with medical technology, and truthfully I don't think it's likely we ever will. Until then all we can offer are cosmetic changes. But because of internationalization and the media, trans has been lumped together with the LGB cause which is causing backlash and misunderstandings from the general population. I realise writing this on a US-centric website is likely to get me ostracised but sometimes I think it's important for different cultures to talk about their differences. We want multiculturalism, right? This is what that means.

nathan_compton 1y ago
I'm not placated by your response here. Whether or not there is good treatment for gender dysphoria, which you seem to think is the key issue, is beside the point. Many trans people don't even want medical treatment, they want the freedom to perform their gender in whatever way makes them feel comfortable (more or less the same way that you want the freedom to perform your sexual orientation in whatever way you feel comfortable). Trans rights is not about a specific interpretation of the experience of being trans and thus it isn't about hormones or surgery. It is about trying to encourage the world to be open to a broader set of gender expressions and more freedom for people to live out the life that they want. There are some tough issues here, yes. But the analogy to the gay rights movement is pretty straightforward.
- simianparrot 1y ago
  Trans is not just an extension of the gay rights movement -- it's a separate thing altogether. There are so many things that are different. Gay men will not demand others let them into areas exclusive to women _for legitimate reasons_. Toilets, housing institutions, and prisons being some. Self-identifying as another gender carries with it requirements of others far beyond simple acceptance. I don't care if I placate you or not. I'm speaking from the POV of someone from a different culture. I don't require you to accept it, just as I respect your different cultural opinions.
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    Academically, gay rights come from romanticism, and trans rights come from feminism, but they're all part of the same fight: same as anti-racism, class conflict, religious pluralism, pacifism, and environmentalism. Historically, the movements have long been linked: gay folk and trans folk ran in similar circles, being trans was classified as a type of homosexuality by the medical establishment… Now that being gay is "normal", but being trans remains "abnormal", respectability politics has led to a lot of historical revisionism. These fights are a lot more related than you think. It's no coincidence that Norway's legislature has been on the forefront of gay rights, trans rights, and intersex rights wrt legal protections (or would you like to try to explain that?) – though your observations do match the relatively-late protections for bi rights, and Norway's fallen behind on protections for intersex infants. But I do appreciate your perspective, as a source of information: many things you're saying are factually incorrect, but it's important to know that some people believe them.
    - simianparrot 1y ago
      I am aware of our legislation but there’s also a cultural component. Many things are technically legal but culturally uncommon. IIRC less than 2000 changed their legal gender in the last decade over here. There’s not that much of a focus on gender because it’s ok to be a feminine male or a woman with masculine traits. Personally I think this obsession with making new categories for people who don’t strictly fit some weird resurgence of classic gender roles —- like intersex —- does more harm than good.
wizzwizz4 1y ago
I'd be more inclined to support your "multiculturalism" claims, if you weren't using language and rhetoric from a British hate group. Do you really say "LGB" in Norway? > And most people don't feel this way when they reach adulthood, as it's _typically_ a part of puberty. Most people don't feel this way in childhood, either – but most people who do feel that way in childhood, also feel that way in adulthood. > Not to say gender dysphoria doesn't exist, but there's also no actual solution to it right now. See, I can tell you haven't spoken much to trans folk, because that's not true. The only things we're missing are gonadal function, and natural erectile function in phalloplasties: everything else (including pregnancy, for trans women) is possible with current medical technology, albeit hideously expensive. Most trans people don't opt for such interventions, because they don't care about them all that much – or because they carry risks, such as vocal surgery. The most common interventions (such as exogenous sex hormones) are extremely effective at alleviating treating gender dysphoria. > Trans just has never been a thing culturally here. Trans people are well attested in ancient Scandinavian cultures – way more so than in Ancient Britain, where we only have fragmentary evidence and some etymological fun facts. I know that has little bearing on your current cultural attitudes, which are as I understand quite rigid about the gender binary, but I'm a pedant. > For one because we have strict laws of medical interventions on underage people, Norwegian law allows puberty blockers for children in Tanner stage 2, and hormones at the age of 16, subject to medical gatekeeping (which, provided waiting lists are reasonable, isn't so bad). The laws prohibit treatment to non-binary people, which is pretty bad, but they're hardly as you've described them.

nathan_compton 1y ago

I'm not placated by your response here. Whether or not there is good treatment for gender dysphoria, which you seem to think is the key issue, is beside the point. Many trans people don't even want medical treatment, they want the freedom to perform their gender in whatever way makes them feel comfortable (more or less the same way that you want the freedom to perform your sexual orientation in whatever way you feel comfortable). Trans rights is not about a specific interpretation of the experience of being trans and thus it isn't about hormones or surgery. It is about trying to encourage the world to be open to a broader set of gender expressions and more freedom for people to live out the life that they want. There are some tough issues here, yes. But the analogy to the gay rights movement is pretty straightforward.

simianparrot 1y ago
Trans is not just an extension of the gay rights movement -- it's a separate thing altogether. There are so many things that are different. Gay men will not demand others let them into areas exclusive to women _for legitimate reasons_. Toilets, housing institutions, and prisons being some. Self-identifying as another gender carries with it requirements of others far beyond simple acceptance. I don't care if I placate you or not. I'm speaking from the POV of someone from a different culture. I don't require you to accept it, just as I respect your different cultural opinions.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  Academically, gay rights come from romanticism, and trans rights come from feminism, but they're all part of the same fight: same as anti-racism, class conflict, religious pluralism, pacifism, and environmentalism. Historically, the movements have long been linked: gay folk and trans folk ran in similar circles, being trans was classified as a type of homosexuality by the medical establishment… Now that being gay is "normal", but being trans remains "abnormal", respectability politics has led to a lot of historical revisionism. These fights are a lot more related than you think. It's no coincidence that Norway's legislature has been on the forefront of gay rights, trans rights, and intersex rights wrt legal protections (or would you like to try to explain that?) – though your observations do match the relatively-late protections for bi rights, and Norway's fallen behind on protections for intersex infants. But I do appreciate your perspective, as a source of information: many things you're saying are factually incorrect, but it's important to know that some people believe them.
  - simianparrot 1y ago
    I am aware of our legislation but there’s also a cultural component. Many things are technically legal but culturally uncommon. IIRC less than 2000 changed their legal gender in the last decade over here. There’s not that much of a focus on gender because it’s ok to be a feminine male or a woman with masculine traits. Personally I think this obsession with making new categories for people who don’t strictly fit some weird resurgence of classic gender roles —- like intersex —- does more harm than good.

wizzwizz4 1y ago

I'd be more inclined to support your "multiculturalism" claims, if you weren't using language and rhetoric from a British hate group. Do you really say "LGB" in Norway? > And most people don't feel this way when they reach adulthood, as it's _typically_ a part of puberty. Most people don't feel this way in childhood, either – but most people who do feel that way in childhood, also feel that way in adulthood. > Not to say gender dysphoria doesn't exist, but there's also no actual solution to it right now. See, I can tell you haven't spoken much to trans folk, because that's not true. The only things we're missing are gonadal function, and natural erectile function in phalloplasties: everything else (including pregnancy, for trans women) is possible with current medical technology, albeit hideously expensive. Most trans people don't opt for such interventions, because they don't care about them all that much – or because they carry risks, such as vocal surgery. The most common interventions (such as exogenous sex hormones) are extremely effective at alleviating treating gender dysphoria. > Trans just has never been a thing culturally here. Trans people are well attested in ancient Scandinavian cultures – way more so than in Ancient Britain, where we only have fragmentary evidence and some etymological fun facts. I know that has little bearing on your current cultural attitudes, which are as I understand quite rigid about the gender binary, but I'm a pedant. > For one because we have strict laws of medical interventions on underage people, Norwegian law allows puberty blockers for children in Tanner stage 2, and hormones at the age of 16, subject to medical gatekeeping (which, provided waiting lists are reasonable, isn't so bad). The laws prohibit treatment to non-binary people, which is pretty bad, but they're hardly as you've described them.