5 ms·

Of course all those things can be sins. The two first leads directly to atheism, and the third can be used to spread atheism.

by boxed 1y ago

graemep 1y ago
Atheism is not a sin - not if a sincere belief. An honest mistake is not sin. If you are arguing that intrinsically good things (reading, thinking, speaking) can be turned to bad purpose, then so can almost anything. If done with honest intent I cannot see how reading, thinking of speaking atheism is sinful. Is there anything in the the Catechism that says otherwise.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  Saying god doesn't exists, is obviously a sin against god. Not sure how you define atheism if it doesn't include that.
  - falcor84 1y ago
    "gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at." Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
  - graemep 1y ago
    > Saying god doesn't exists, is obviously a sin against god. its not obvious to me. I cannot see how an honestly held belief can be a sin. Is it evil to be an atheist because you believe there is no God? Clearly not, so how can you say its a sin?
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      When I honestly think you are a murder, is that not insulting to you? When I honestly think I'm entitled to the money in the bank, does that mean I won't be judged? If there are people that are atheists, because they have never heard of anyone telling them about god, then no that is not a sin. I doubt that applies to most people. Most atheists are atheists by choice, not because they wouldn't have access to information about god.
      - boxed 1y ago
        > Most atheists are atheists by choice, not because they wouldn't have access to information about god. That's not choice though. I can't become a believer in god anymore than I can sprout wings. I can't just start believing something false. No one can make a decision to believe something on will alone. That's not how brains work.
        1718627440 1y ago
        > That's not choice though. Plain disagree. True, you can not come to believe in god on your own. Neither can god make you believe on his own. You can still pray for it. Mother Teresa famously didn't believed in God's existence for decades. She still didn't became an atheist. > No one can make a decision to believe Yes, you can't. You can make the decision to search however.
        boxed 1y ago
        You, I mean you singular, can't decide to believe that 1+1=4. You know that it's not to the core of your being. There is literally no choice possible when the facts are in. This is what it's like to be a strong atheist. > Mother Teresa famously didn't believed in God's existence for decades. She still didn't became an atheist. She did become a turturer of the most vulnerable people though. So... yea, I guess that's another type of argument against faith.
        1718627440 1y ago
        Yes of course. (Other than that math expression is a language and I could redefine symbols, but yes I see how it's not about symbols here.) You just can't reason about the cause of reasoning, and the origin of the concept of cause and effect. You can dispute if that origin is more like a person that doesn't care about anything, a person that wants a relationship with you (Christianity/Judaism), a fundamental core concept (pantheism) or randomness (evolutionist). You simply can't just know that. That's why it is a choice. > She did become a turturer What? Ok, I've found a single article by the Guardian about a claim being filed is there any source about whether that is true?
- rob74 1y ago
  Well, the first of the ten commandments is "You shall have no other gods before Me" , and that, according to a widespread interpretation, also forbids atheism: > There is manifestly contained in this commandment AN IMPLICIT DENIAL OF ALL ATHEISM. The command, "Thou shalt have none other gods before Me," rests on the assumption that there is one true and living God. The law therefore forbids atheism as being a denial of God. (https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/barrett/the_first_commandment.htm#:~:text=There%20is%20manifestly%20contained%20in%20this%20commandment%20AN,forbids%20atheism%20as%20being%20a%20denial%20of%20God. https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/barrett/the_first_commandm...)
  - graemep 1y ago
    Does that make it a sin? Commandments are not detailed guides, but general principles. There are clearly accepted exceptions to most of them, including honest belief. Who exactly is the source you cite for the claim atheism is breaking the commandment and therefore sinful? He does not seem to be a Catholic, let alone someone with authority to define the church's teachings. Can you link to a similar statement in the Catechism, a church Council, or at least a papal encyclical? "One protestant preacher said" is not proof of what the Catholic Church believes.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - boxed 1y ago
      > Commandments are not detailed guides, but general principles That's a far stretch. How is "keep the sabbath holy" a "general principle" in any way? How is "thou shalt have no other gods before me"?
      - graemep 1y ago
        What about "You shall not kill". There are quite a tradition of exceptions. In self-defence (generally accepted), in war (widely accepted, although not by everyone, and always with limitations such as requiring the war is just), and for judicial punishment (although again only as a necessity, and the Catholic Church has said its not necessary under modern circumstances).
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  Atheism is not per se a sin, but it may as well be, precisely because Catholics believe everyone is born sinful and only the correct configuration of beliefs in one's head is sufficient to undo that state of affairs. This is my big problem with Christianity. Salvation, in the end, is a matter of assigning the correct truth value to purely historical statements, not moral ones. Like to be saved, most Christians say, one must believe a litany of things about the historical figure of Christ. But that is just a history exam! It seems highly implausible that the God most people think of when they think of the Christian God would assign torture and torment based purely on a failure to come to a certain historical conclusion.
  - graemep 1y ago
    Most Christians? I very much doubt it. It is NOT the teaching of the Catholic church for a start: https://uscatholic.org/articles/202212/what-does-the-church-teach-about-people-of-other-faiths/ https://uscatholic.org/articles/202212/what-does-the-church-... https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_coun... Nor do they believe hell to be a place of torture, but a state of separation from God. Read CS Lewis's Great Divorce if you are interested in a better metaphor than flames and torture.
    - boxed 1y ago
      From the first URL: > but it means that God labors tirelessly to bring all people — Christian or not — to salvation in Christ. That is a hilarious quote. Only believers can say that with a straight face and not see the absolute madness it implies. How could "God labor[] tirelessly" to help everyone into salvation? That's on its face absolute garbage. Is God so incredibly weak that he could only show the path to salvation to 12 dudes 2000 years ago? If so, why should we worship that god, which seems like a pitiful figure compared to many nobel prize winners. I certainly would think we owe more worship to Normal Borlaug than a god that can't get his message across because he could only intervene in a credible way once in front of 12 people, and then never again.
- renox 1y ago
  > Atheism is not a sin - not if a sincere belief. An honest mistake is not sin. Historically, religions (when there in position of power of course) have not been especially kind with atheists..
  - graemep 1y ago
    NOt necessarily in the way most people think. You might find this lecture interesting: https://www.gresham.ac.uk/watch-now/atheist-medieval-europe https://www.gresham.ac.uk/watch-now/atheist-medieval-europe
    - renox 1y ago
      I didn't find it very interesting sorry.
- bitshiftfaced 1y ago
  > Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. [Cites Romans 1:18] The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion." [62] - CCC 2125 Interestingly, I believe this means, from the Church's perspective, that the mere fact of my posting this makes this sin more imputable to those who read it! Sorry about that.
notorandit 1y ago
There is only one law: love your neighbor like yourself. Anything else either comes from others or from older "laws".
- boxed 1y ago
  Those other laws were explicitly reaffirmed by Jesus. Your statement is not supported by scripture. It's not christianity.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  I would answer the same to you as I already did here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44900273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44900273

Of course all those things can be sins. The two first leads directly to atheism, and the third can be used to spread atheism.

by boxed 1y ago

Of course all those things can be sins. The two first leads directly to atheism, and the third can be used to spread atheism.

graemep 1y ago

Atheism is not a sin - not if a sincere belief. An honest mistake is not sin. If you are arguing that intrinsically good things (reading, thinking, speaking) can be turned to bad purpose, then so can almost anything. If done with honest intent I cannot see how reading, thinking of speaking atheism is sinful. Is there anything in the the Catechism that says otherwise.

1718627440 1y ago
Saying god doesn't exists, is obviously a sin against god. Not sure how you define atheism if it doesn't include that.
- falcor84 1y ago
  "gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at." Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
- graemep 1y ago
  > Saying god doesn't exists, is obviously a sin against god. its not obvious to me. I cannot see how an honestly held belief can be a sin. Is it evil to be an atheist because you believe there is no God? Clearly not, so how can you say its a sin?
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    When I honestly think you are a murder, is that not insulting to you? When I honestly think I'm entitled to the money in the bank, does that mean I won't be judged? If there are people that are atheists, because they have never heard of anyone telling them about god, then no that is not a sin. I doubt that applies to most people. Most atheists are atheists by choice, not because they wouldn't have access to information about god.
    - boxed 1y ago
      > Most atheists are atheists by choice, not because they wouldn't have access to information about god. That's not choice though. I can't become a believer in god anymore than I can sprout wings. I can't just start believing something false. No one can make a decision to believe something on will alone. That's not how brains work.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        > That's not choice though. Plain disagree. True, you can not come to believe in god on your own. Neither can god make you believe on his own. You can still pray for it. Mother Teresa famously didn't believed in God's existence for decades. She still didn't became an atheist. > No one can make a decision to believe Yes, you can't. You can make the decision to search however.
        boxed 1y ago
        You, I mean you singular, can't decide to believe that 1+1=4. You know that it's not to the core of your being. There is literally no choice possible when the facts are in. This is what it's like to be a strong atheist. > Mother Teresa famously didn't believed in God's existence for decades. She still didn't became an atheist. She did become a turturer of the most vulnerable people though. So... yea, I guess that's another type of argument against faith.
        1718627440 1y ago
        Yes of course. (Other than that math expression is a language and I could redefine symbols, but yes I see how it's not about symbols here.) You just can't reason about the cause of reasoning, and the origin of the concept of cause and effect. You can dispute if that origin is more like a person that doesn't care about anything, a person that wants a relationship with you (Christianity/Judaism), a fundamental core concept (pantheism) or randomness (evolutionist). You simply can't just know that. That's why it is a choice. > She did become a turturer What? Ok, I've found a single article by the Guardian about a claim being filed is there any source about whether that is true?
rob74 1y ago
Well, the first of the ten commandments is "You shall have no other gods before Me" , and that, according to a widespread interpretation, also forbids atheism: > There is manifestly contained in this commandment AN IMPLICIT DENIAL OF ALL ATHEISM. The command, "Thou shalt have none other gods before Me," rests on the assumption that there is one true and living God. The law therefore forbids atheism as being a denial of God. (https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/barrett/the_first_commandment.htm#:~:text=There%20is%20manifestly%20contained%20in%20this%20commandment%20AN,forbids%20atheism%20as%20being%20a%20denial%20of%20God. https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/barrett/the_first_commandm...)
- graemep 1y ago
  Does that make it a sin? Commandments are not detailed guides, but general principles. There are clearly accepted exceptions to most of them, including honest belief. Who exactly is the source you cite for the claim atheism is breaking the commandment and therefore sinful? He does not seem to be a Catholic, let alone someone with authority to define the church's teachings. Can you link to a similar statement in the Catechism, a church Council, or at least a papal encyclical? "One protestant preacher said" is not proof of what the Catholic Church believes.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - boxed 1y ago
    > Commandments are not detailed guides, but general principles That's a far stretch. How is "keep the sabbath holy" a "general principle" in any way? How is "thou shalt have no other gods before me"?
    - graemep 1y ago
      What about "You shall not kill". There are quite a tradition of exceptions. In self-defence (generally accepted), in war (widely accepted, although not by everyone, and always with limitations such as requiring the war is just), and for judicial punishment (although again only as a necessity, and the Catholic Church has said its not necessary under modern circumstances).
nathan_compton 1y ago
Atheism is not per se a sin, but it may as well be, precisely because Catholics believe everyone is born sinful and only the correct configuration of beliefs in one's head is sufficient to undo that state of affairs. This is my big problem with Christianity. Salvation, in the end, is a matter of assigning the correct truth value to purely historical statements, not moral ones. Like to be saved, most Christians say, one must believe a litany of things about the historical figure of Christ. But that is just a history exam! It seems highly implausible that the God most people think of when they think of the Christian God would assign torture and torment based purely on a failure to come to a certain historical conclusion.
- graemep 1y ago
  Most Christians? I very much doubt it. It is NOT the teaching of the Catholic church for a start: https://uscatholic.org/articles/202212/what-does-the-church-teach-about-people-of-other-faiths/ https://uscatholic.org/articles/202212/what-does-the-church-... https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_coun... Nor do they believe hell to be a place of torture, but a state of separation from God. Read CS Lewis's Great Divorce if you are interested in a better metaphor than flames and torture.
  - boxed 1y ago
    From the first URL: > but it means that God labors tirelessly to bring all people — Christian or not — to salvation in Christ. That is a hilarious quote. Only believers can say that with a straight face and not see the absolute madness it implies. How could "God labor[] tirelessly" to help everyone into salvation? That's on its face absolute garbage. Is God so incredibly weak that he could only show the path to salvation to 12 dudes 2000 years ago? If so, why should we worship that god, which seems like a pitiful figure compared to many nobel prize winners. I certainly would think we owe more worship to Normal Borlaug than a god that can't get his message across because he could only intervene in a credible way once in front of 12 people, and then never again.
renox 1y ago
> Atheism is not a sin - not if a sincere belief. An honest mistake is not sin. Historically, religions (when there in position of power of course) have not been especially kind with atheists..
- graemep 1y ago
  NOt necessarily in the way most people think. You might find this lecture interesting: https://www.gresham.ac.uk/watch-now/atheist-medieval-europe https://www.gresham.ac.uk/watch-now/atheist-medieval-europe
  - renox 1y ago
    I didn't find it very interesting sorry.
bitshiftfaced 1y ago
> Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. [Cites Romans 1:18] The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion." [62] - CCC 2125 Interestingly, I believe this means, from the Church's perspective, that the mere fact of my posting this makes this sin more imputable to those who read it! Sorry about that.

notorandit 1y ago

There is only one law: love your neighbor like yourself. Anything else either comes from others or from older "laws".

boxed 1y ago
Those other laws were explicitly reaffirmed by Jesus. Your statement is not supported by scripture. It's not christianity.
1718627440 1y ago
I would answer the same to you as I already did here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44900273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44900273