5 ms·

The nature of Chinese censorship makes it difficult to provide hard numbers, but it really is worse. America's handling of censorship is certainly not the best,

The nature of Chinese censorship makes it difficult to provide hard numbers, but it really is worse. America's handling of censorship is certainly not the best, and it has gotten worse recently, but it is not on the level of China.

antonymoose 1y ago
At least the Chinese have the courtesy to be obvious about it. The American and European powers pretend we’re free and open societies while actively undermining public speech that it doesn’t like.
- ambicapter 1y ago
  You think they're obvious about it intentionally?
  - rangestransform 1y ago
    I think they cultivate the image of having a panopticon to say to citizens "don't even try", but in reality the censors can't see everything
  - antonymoose 1y ago
    Isn’t that the entire point of their system, the social score lets you know exactly what’s going on?
    - adamsb6 1y ago
      Social scores aren't real.
    - aisosodndn 1y ago
      The social score is not real. That is western propaganda in action.
      - euleriancon 1y ago
        What are you referring to? gov.cn page on social credit system plan https://www.ndrc.gov.cn/xxgk/zcfb/tz/202406/P020240604321155857118.pdf https://www.ndrc.gov.cn/xxgk/zcfb/tz/202406/P020240604321155... gov.cn page on social credit system suggested changes/opinions https://www.gov.cn/zhengce/202503/content_7016535.htm https://www.gov.cn/zhengce/202503/content_7016535.htm baidu page on social credit system https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%A4%BE%E4%BC%9A%E4%BF%A1%E7%94%A8%E4%BD%93%E7%B3%BB/1057379 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%A4%BE%E4%BC%9A%E4%BF%A1%E7%... Are you making the distinction that its name is actually the social credit system and not social score? Or that the system isn't fully in place yet. Or perhaps are you suggesting that gov.cn and baidu are part of the deep state's propaganda plan against China.
        aisosodndn 1y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System I think this answers all your questions? It has no real effect (many people don’t have one). But, I’m not sure what your question really is. The American propaganda definition (which may vary) is incorrect because the system doesn’t really exist.
        euleriancon 1y ago
        I agree that the American understanding of the Social Credit System is flawed, but to suggest it doesn't exist is an extreme overreach. Furthermore, it clearly is a system that is important to the CCP and has an effect. From the Baidu page: 建立社会信用体系是保持国民经济持续、稳定增长的需要 Establishing a social credit system is necessary to maintain sustained and stable growth of the national economy Certainly Mainland China does need a credit system, and undoubtedly the Social Credit System will and has helped in that regard, but it does have legitimate flaws with regards to privacy. Its goals extend beyond ensuring creditworthiness to 社会信用体系具有揭示功能，能够扬善惩恶，提高经济效率； The social credit system has a revealing function, can promote good and punish evil, and improve economic efficiency; And its integration with the National Healthcare Security Administration, and other government and private entities extend its reach far beyond what the Western credit systems do.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - PeterStuer 1y ago
      On a scale from credit score to being debanked, where does China's social score rank on the Western oubliette spectrum?
      - antonymoose 1y ago
        I’m not here to rank societies.
jennyholzer 1y ago
[flagged]
- euleriancon 1y ago
  Plane tickets to China are relatively cheap right now. LAX to PEK round trip for $750. Take a trip and see for yourself.
  - jennyholzer 1y ago
    somehow i'm not convinced by your argument
- euleriancon 1y ago
  Here is a list of items that matter for an American. It is much worse if you are from Hong Kong or Taiwan. 1. Instagram, Facebook, Youtube, Twitter (basically all major American social media platforms) are not accessible without a VPN. Some major VPN providers have also been banned as well. The counter argument is that many Huawei products are also banned. But I actively use Harmony OS on my Huawei smart watch. I can view Bilibili content, XiaoHongShu, QQ, and other platforms on any device without issue. 2. State media propaganda. My first time seeing state movies was shocking how in your face the propaganda was. It is completely blatant. From talking with locals about it, they recognize it as propaganda (although the Chinese word for propaganda doesn't have the same negative connotation as in English). I haven't watched state sponsored news to get a feel for their bias, but from the amount I have seen they are certainly selectively with their content. Everything focuses and the achievements Xi JinPing has recently achieved. The idea of a media outlet reporting on something silly the president has done is absurd. 3. The surveillance infrastructure in China surpasses even the UK. The number of cameras almost looks like a gag. Once again, the nature of how opaque the government is means it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty what they use the data for, but they certainly collect a lot.
1oooqooq 1y ago
there's a paper that compares both when it comes to promoting organized political action (which is the only type of censorship that is not morally justifiable under any semblance of democracy) and both countries scored the same low points. both got high passing grades on allowing meaningless complaining about government.

antonymoose 1y ago

At least the Chinese have the courtesy to be obvious about it. The American and European powers pretend we’re free and open societies while actively undermining public speech that it doesn’t like.

ambicapter 1y ago
You think they're obvious about it intentionally?
- rangestransform 1y ago
  I think they cultivate the image of having a panopticon to say to citizens "don't even try", but in reality the censors can't see everything
- antonymoose 1y ago
  Isn’t that the entire point of their system, the social score lets you know exactly what’s going on?
  - adamsb6 1y ago
    Social scores aren't real.
  - aisosodndn 1y ago
    The social score is not real. That is western propaganda in action.
    - euleriancon 1y ago
      What are you referring to? gov.cn page on social credit system plan https://www.ndrc.gov.cn/xxgk/zcfb/tz/202406/P020240604321155857118.pdf https://www.ndrc.gov.cn/xxgk/zcfb/tz/202406/P020240604321155... gov.cn page on social credit system suggested changes/opinions https://www.gov.cn/zhengce/202503/content_7016535.htm https://www.gov.cn/zhengce/202503/content_7016535.htm baidu page on social credit system https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%A4%BE%E4%BC%9A%E4%BF%A1%E7%94%A8%E4%BD%93%E7%B3%BB/1057379 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%A4%BE%E4%BC%9A%E4%BF%A1%E7%... Are you making the distinction that its name is actually the social credit system and not social score? Or that the system isn't fully in place yet. Or perhaps are you suggesting that gov.cn and baidu are part of the deep state's propaganda plan against China.
      - aisosodndn 1y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System I think this answers all your questions? It has no real effect (many people don’t have one). But, I’m not sure what your question really is. The American propaganda definition (which may vary) is incorrect because the system doesn’t really exist.
        euleriancon 1y ago
        I agree that the American understanding of the Social Credit System is flawed, but to suggest it doesn't exist is an extreme overreach. Furthermore, it clearly is a system that is important to the CCP and has an effect. From the Baidu page: 建立社会信用体系是保持国民经济持续、稳定增长的需要 Establishing a social credit system is necessary to maintain sustained and stable growth of the national economy Certainly Mainland China does need a credit system, and undoubtedly the Social Credit System will and has helped in that regard, but it does have legitimate flaws with regards to privacy. Its goals extend beyond ensuring creditworthiness to 社会信用体系具有揭示功能，能够扬善惩恶，提高经济效率； The social credit system has a revealing function, can promote good and punish evil, and improve economic efficiency; And its integration with the National Healthcare Security Administration, and other government and private entities extend its reach far beyond what the Western credit systems do.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - PeterStuer 1y ago
    On a scale from credit score to being debanked, where does China's social score rank on the Western oubliette spectrum?
    - antonymoose 1y ago
      I’m not here to rank societies.

jennyholzer 1y ago

[flagged]

euleriancon 1y ago
Plane tickets to China are relatively cheap right now. LAX to PEK round trip for $750. Take a trip and see for yourself.
- jennyholzer 1y ago
  somehow i'm not convinced by your argument
euleriancon 1y ago
Here is a list of items that matter for an American. It is much worse if you are from Hong Kong or Taiwan. 1. Instagram, Facebook, Youtube, Twitter (basically all major American social media platforms) are not accessible without a VPN. Some major VPN providers have also been banned as well. The counter argument is that many Huawei products are also banned. But I actively use Harmony OS on my Huawei smart watch. I can view Bilibili content, XiaoHongShu, QQ, and other platforms on any device without issue. 2. State media propaganda. My first time seeing state movies was shocking how in your face the propaganda was. It is completely blatant. From talking with locals about it, they recognize it as propaganda (although the Chinese word for propaganda doesn't have the same negative connotation as in English). I haven't watched state sponsored news to get a feel for their bias, but from the amount I have seen they are certainly selectively with their content. Everything focuses and the achievements Xi JinPing has recently achieved. The idea of a media outlet reporting on something silly the president has done is absurd. 3. The surveillance infrastructure in China surpasses even the UK. The number of cameras almost looks like a gag. Once again, the nature of how opaque the government is means it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty what they use the data for, but they certainly collect a lot.

1oooqooq 1y ago

there's a paper that compares both when it comes to promoting organized political action (which is the only type of censorship that is not morally justifiable under any semblance of democracy) and both countries scored the same low points. both got high passing grades on allowing meaningless complaining about government.