4 ms·

A lot of that work is basically fixing documentation bugs, labelled "ghosts" in your text. Places where the ISO document is so bad as a description of C that yo

A lot of that work is basically fixing documentation bugs, labelled "ghosts" in your text. Places where the ISO document is so bad as a description of C that you would think there's Undefined Behaviour but it's actually just poorly written. Fixing the document is worthwhile, and certainly a reminder that WG21's equivalent effort needs to make the list before it can even begin that process on its even longer document, but practical C programmers don't read the document and since this UB was a "ghost" they weren't tripped by it. Removing items from the list this way does not translate to the meaningful safety improvement you might imagine. There's not a whole lot of movement there towards actually fixing the problem. Maybe it will come later?

uecker 1y ago
Fixing the actual problems is work-in-progress (as my document also indicates), but naturally it is harder. But the original article also complains about the number of trivial UB.
taneq 1y ago
> practical C programmers don't read the document and since this UB was a "ghost" they weren't tripped by it I would strongly suspect that C compiler implementers very much do read the document, though. Which, as far as I can see, means "ghosts" could easily become actual UB (and worse, sneaky UB that you wouldn't expect.)
- tialaramex 1y ago
  The previous language might cause a C compiler developer to get very confused because it seems as though they can choose something else but what it is isn't specified, but almost invariably eventually they'll realise oh, it's just badly worded and didn't mean "should" there. It's like one of those tricky self-referential parlor box statements. "The statement on this box is not true"? Thanks I guess. But that's a game, the puzzles are supposed to be like that, whereas the mission of the ISO document was not to confuse people, so it's good that it is being improved.
  - uecker 1y ago
    Most of the "ghosts" are indeed just cleaning up the wording. But compiler writers historically often used any excuse that the standard is not clear to justify aggressive optimization. This starts with an overreaching interpretation of UB itself, to wacky concepts such as time-travel, wobbly numbers, incorrect implementation of aliasing (e.g. still in clang), and pointer-to-integer round trips.
    - tialaramex 1y ago
      I'm sure the compiler authors will disagree that they were "using any excuse". From their point of view they were merely making transformations between equivalent programs, and so any mistake is either that these are not in fact equivalent programs because they screwed up - which is certainly sometimes the case - or the standard should not have said they were equivalent but it did. One huge thing they have on their side is that their implementation is concrete. Whatever it is that, say, GCC does is de facto actually a thing a compiler can do. The standards bodies (and WG21 has been worse by some margin, but they're both guilty) may standardize anything, but concretely the compiler can only implement some things. "Just do X" where X isn't practical works fine on paper but is not implementable. This was the fate of the Consume ordering. Consume/ Release works fine on paper, you "just" need to have whole program analysis to implement it. Well of course that's not practical so it's not implemented.
      - uecker 1y ago
        They sometimes screwed up, sometimes just because of bugs, or because different optimization passes had different assumptions that are inconsistent. This somehow contradicts your second point. Compiler have something things implemented which may be concrete on some sense (because it is in a compiler), but still not really a "thing" because it is a mess nobody can formalize using a coherent set of rules. But then, they also sometimes misread the standard in ways I can't really understand. This often can be seen when the "interpretation" changes over time. Earlier compilers (or even earlier parts of the same compiler) implement the standard as written, some new optimization pass has some creative interpretation.
- Sharlin 1y ago
  If I understand correctly, the "ghosts" are vacuously UB. As in, the standard specifies that if X, then UB, but X can in fact never be true according to the standard.

uecker 1y ago

Fixing the actual problems is work-in-progress (as my document also indicates), but naturally it is harder. But the original article also complains about the number of trivial UB.

taneq 1y ago

> practical C programmers don't read the document and since this UB was a "ghost" they weren't tripped by it I would strongly suspect that C compiler implementers very much do read the document, though. Which, as far as I can see, means "ghosts" could easily become actual UB (and worse, sneaky UB that you wouldn't expect.)

tialaramex 1y ago
The previous language might cause a C compiler developer to get very confused because it seems as though they can choose something else but what it is isn't specified, but almost invariably eventually they'll realise oh, it's just badly worded and didn't mean "should" there. It's like one of those tricky self-referential parlor box statements. "The statement on this box is not true"? Thanks I guess. But that's a game, the puzzles are supposed to be like that, whereas the mission of the ISO document was not to confuse people, so it's good that it is being improved.
- uecker 1y ago
  Most of the "ghosts" are indeed just cleaning up the wording. But compiler writers historically often used any excuse that the standard is not clear to justify aggressive optimization. This starts with an overreaching interpretation of UB itself, to wacky concepts such as time-travel, wobbly numbers, incorrect implementation of aliasing (e.g. still in clang), and pointer-to-integer round trips.
  - tialaramex 1y ago
    I'm sure the compiler authors will disagree that they were "using any excuse". From their point of view they were merely making transformations between equivalent programs, and so any mistake is either that these are not in fact equivalent programs because they screwed up - which is certainly sometimes the case - or the standard should not have said they were equivalent but it did. One huge thing they have on their side is that their implementation is concrete. Whatever it is that, say, GCC does is de facto actually a thing a compiler can do. The standards bodies (and WG21 has been worse by some margin, but they're both guilty) may standardize anything, but concretely the compiler can only implement some things. "Just do X" where X isn't practical works fine on paper but is not implementable. This was the fate of the Consume ordering. Consume/ Release works fine on paper, you "just" need to have whole program analysis to implement it. Well of course that's not practical so it's not implemented.
    - uecker 1y ago
      They sometimes screwed up, sometimes just because of bugs, or because different optimization passes had different assumptions that are inconsistent. This somehow contradicts your second point. Compiler have something things implemented which may be concrete on some sense (because it is in a compiler), but still not really a "thing" because it is a mess nobody can formalize using a coherent set of rules. But then, they also sometimes misread the standard in ways I can't really understand. This often can be seen when the "interpretation" changes over time. Earlier compilers (or even earlier parts of the same compiler) implement the standard as written, some new optimization pass has some creative interpretation.
Sharlin 1y ago
If I understand correctly, the "ghosts" are vacuously UB. As in, the standard specifies that if X, then UB, but X can in fact never be true according to the standard.