6 ms·

Death and What Comes Next (2002)

84 points by internet_points 1y ago

yawpitch 1y ago
That’s the beauty of Pratchett’s conception of Death… when all else fails, you’ll be met with a smile.
dzdt 1y ago
GNU Terry Pratchett
- chrisweekly 1y ago
  What's GNU in this context? (Clearly not "Gnu's Not Unix", and it seems like a substitute for RIP...?)
  - andyjohnson0 1y ago
    https://xclacksoverhead.org/home/about https://xclacksoverhead.org/home/about
    - chrisweekly 1y ago
      Aha, TIL. Thanks!
zabzonk 1y ago
As far as I can see from the books, what comes next after death is mostly determined by what has gone on before. So, a bit like life, really.
- bombcar 1y ago
  And as we see often, it’s based on what you truly believe; not what you wished you believed. Something to think about.
  - jemmyw 1y ago
    And don't forget your potato
druskacik 1y ago
I always wondered about the idea posed in this short story. Does the "everything that can happen does happen" theory apply to free will? If there really are infinite universes, is there a one when I'm walking a street full of people and out of nowhere we all start singing Ode to Joy in perfect unisono? Or get naked and have a massive orgy? No law of physics rules this out. (Sorry, I'm a layman.)
- rmi_ 1y ago
  I've always wondered if this (kinda widespread?) theory stems from most people thinking that "infitnity" includes every possible option, which is not true. (I'm a layman, too)
  - druskacik 1y ago
    Doesn't infinity include every possible option (possible meaning that it can happen within rules of physics)? If the model of the universe is one where events are happening with some probability, then if the probability is nonzero and the number of universes is infinite, then the event should happen in some of the universes. (Still a layman, though.)
  - dzdt 1y ago
    Mathematician here, so educated layman on the physics but expert on infinity if you like. Mathematically, "infinity" doesn't imply every possible option. But in terms of quantum physics, yes it kind of does include every possible option. There is a kind of joke classroom exercise in quantum physics class to calculate the probability that a piano would instantaneously rematerialize a meter away from its previously observed location. Its 10^-[ ridiculous number] but still thats not zero. The size of physical reconfiguration of a person's brain to cause them to break out singing is a much smaller deviation so comparatively likely. So 10^-[somewhat less ridiculous nunber]
    - XorNot 1y ago
      The bigger issue with all those non-zero probabilities is they're meaningless while you still experience actual time as a human...but become pretty damn significant when you experience no time after you die. So tiny probabilities become essentially guarantees unless the heat death of the universe is so thorough as to erase the slight probability that the whole thing pops back into existence.
ivape 1y ago
Makes good sense. If we were like Lions, every action we’d ever do would be roughly correct (can still be a mistake, but not wrong). To echo Death, you can see how I’m failing at describing this because I’m still constrained by right and wrong. For example, a Lion committing infanticide is not immoral. By all definitions of an animal, nothing a human does is immoral. So why are we immoral then?
- mapontosevenths 1y ago
  > So why are we immoral then? Mostly because it's easier than the alternative. More seriously, you've just described the "moral" of the story of Adam and Eve. In that view of the world our problem is that we understand morality (thanks to that apple eating strumpet) and therefore can make choices. Animals, infants, and the simple-minded have no such concept and therefore can't be held responsible for violating it. This, of course, all nonsense and implies a sort of paternalistic universe, but it was always going to be that way. Everything we know is defined by it's relationship to something else we know, and we don't know God. We know Dad. Fundamentally it's a way to make God seem like less of a child-abusing jerk. A sky-daddy who "punishes" those who understand morality, but grants slack to the cutie-patootie babies and puppies is just nicer for people to believe in.
  - ivape 1y ago
    Let’s take God’s punishment unto man from the events of Eden for a moment. If you don’t hold a creature given morality accountable, then that creature is fundamentally the same as a creature that was not given morality. We’d be asking God to “undefine” us. Remember, even with the punishment, most don’t understand the accountability that comes with our extra gift. Let me put it another way. I’ll use the potential of all possibilities, with respect to all possible creations. The potential for a God to create everything is there. So, a Jellyfish, or, a rainbow colored one, or, a giant rainbow colored one. It’s possible a creature with perfect morality could have been created, no morality, some morality, and so on. So, it’s possible to create both a human that will be judged and one that will not be judged. The one that is to be judged can yell and scream “but why but why but why”, to which the answer would be “because, by definition, this is the definition of the thing created”. If it was said that a Lion was to eat antelope, then that is the case. If it was said a Lion was to eat jellybeans only, then that is the case. It’s what was defined. —- If I promote you to CEO but give you none of the powers of a CEO, then I did not make you a CEO. So, we know we were given morality. Why should the definition not be complete with inevitable judgement? We’d be asking to be redefined.
tombert 1y ago
I have been reading through the Discworld books in publication order, and they have been downright delightful. I have only finished the first eleven, but thus far all of them have been fun and most of them have little nuggets of wisdom that really do invite thought into a deeper theme. Thus far my favorite has been Mort, but I also ended up really liking Sourcery as well. I hadn’t read any Pratchett while he was still alive, I hadn’t even heard of him in fact, but given how prolific he was and the level of cleverness in his stories, I wish he was still alive.
- jemmyw 1y ago
  I wish he was still alive too, but I think the books had come to an end, at least the mainline ones. The problem was he started taking it in a very Victorian direction and I felt like it lost the dark grittiness the earlier books had. He was at his best when riffing off others, Shakespeare and Tolkien and the other influences that were, again, a bigger part of the earlier books. I think it was Going Postal or Monstrous Regiment where I thought to myself I don't look forward to these the same anymore. Before then I would read a new Discworld in one sitting. However, when I look back it was the Truth (book 25) where I felt the direction went off for me, even though I continued to enjoy them. I mean, 25 incredibly funny books is an amazing and wonderful thing anyway (I think Thief of Time 26 was very good).
  - Insanity 1y ago
    I haven’t read Discworld. Although funnily enough I worked in a team where our services were named after Discworld characters, so I’m aware of _some_ lore lol. That said.. it’s kind of daunting to start a series with so many books, and I consider myself a prolific reader (~30-40 books per year).
    - jemmyw 1y ago
      The problem with starting is that the very early books aren't that well written. They're funny and imaginative and great stories, but the actual text is a bit difficult. I found this out when reading them out loud to my oldest who was a bit slow to reading (fine now).
nachox999 1y ago
It appears to me unnecessary to say much about the terrors of death. The subject has been sufficiently enlarged upon by various writers; besides, every one knows and feels for himself that life is sweet and death is bitter. However old a man may be, however broken in health, however miserable his circumstances, the thought of death is an unwelcome one. There are three principal reasons why all sensible people fear death so much: First, because the love of life, the dread of death is inherent in human nature. Secondly, because every rational being is well aware that death is bitter, and the separation of soul and body cannot take place without inexpressible suffering. Thirdly, because no one knows whither he will go after death
- drbojingle 1y ago
  We also recover from many things so being sick once more is something we might recover from. Some know it's a there time and other really could have years so hope plays a part too
- state_less 1y ago
  Have you considered who you would be without your fear? What if you had nothing to fear and nothing to doubt?
  - nachox999 1y ago
    Without fear I would probably be a sociopath, without doubts a proudful egomaniac with god complex
    - state_less 1y ago
      That's interesting! I'm supposing you've been really afraid before, and you'll know it's quite an agitated state to be in. So normally, without fear, folks will be more at peace, more at ease. As far as sociopaths and egomaniacs go, my experience is that they are usually quite fearful, though they try to mask it with compensating measures. You might feel bad for them if they weren't so often spoiling other peoples fun with their antics.
- 1y ago
megaloblasto 1y ago
"Life is beautiful. Really, it is. Full of beauty and illusions. Life is great. Without it, you'd be dead." -- Gummo
hshshshshsh 1y ago
There is no death. It's just an idea in awareness. You were dead for infinity. How can you be dead for infinity and alive now. Makes no sense. Only explanation is it's infinite. 0 - 1 second alive is not 1 second. It's infinite.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  How can this plum I'm holding have been not a plum for infinity, but is a plum now? Makes no sense. Clearly it is infinitely a plum.
  - hshshshshsh 1y ago
    There is nothing called plum. All there is experience. Changing experience. Appearing in awareness. The awareness is constant. Among time. Only constant.
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      I dunno, I'm holding this thing and I'm calling it a plum. Also, I was definitely not aware when sleeping last night, so that doesn't seem right either.
    - qualeed 1y ago
      While I understand each of the words you have written, I have no idea what you are trying to say. What would you suggest I do with this information? I get the impression that you were trying for something cryptic and profound sounding, but went a little too overboard and lost the underlying message, leaving the reader trying to decipher a bunch of meaningless 2 to 4 word sentences.
      - hshshshshsh 1y ago
        The master appears when student is ready. But if you are serious look into advaita or madhyamaka.
jackdoe 1y ago
Ignoring the moral question in the story, many people are satisfied by saying "haha funny, the cat is both dead and alive" and they just move on. Reading Pratchett for almost 30 years, it has fueled quite an interested in quantum mechanics in me, he subtly introduces QM teasers in almost every book I read. Particularly Mort. As I dropped out of highschool, I didnt have the luck to properly study physics, but in my 30s, I my existential crisis hit, as they say, a man dies twice, and the stupid half dead cat wouldn't leave me alone. And one night the omnipotent youtube algorithm recommended Susskind's lectures to me, then Feynman, Shankar, .. it just kept going. Now I watch and re-watch them but take screenshots and send them to claude when I am confused (which is still most of the time). If you are a layman like me and just want to know what is up with the cat, I encourage you to watch Sean Carroll's lectures (dont miss the Q&A videos) and it will for sure allow you to ask at least better questions. I love that cat so much. --- Sean Carroll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI09kat_GeI&list=PLrxfgDEc2NxZJcWcrxH3jyjUUrJlnoyzX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI09kat_GeI&list=PLrxfgDEc2N... Richard Feynman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kFOXP026eE&list=PLS3_1JNX8dEh5YcO-Y05stU0u_T9nqIlF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kFOXP026eE&list=PLS3_1JNX8d... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAnnEiAjN6U&list=PLYZ3-8b-4zqGT2hQQBEDSW07iU_oHS3jF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAnnEiAjN6U&list=PLYZ3-8b-4z... Leonard Susskind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyX8kQ-JzHI&list=PL6i60qoDQhQGaGbbg-4aSwXJvxOqO6o5e https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyX8kQ-JzHI&list=PL6i60qoDQh... Ramamurti Shankar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eFv7ne_Q&list=PLF366409F51FF3CA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eFv7ne_Q&list=PLF366409F5... Barton Zwiebach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANZxzetPaQ&list=PLUl4u3cNGP60cspQn3N9dYRPiyVWDd80G https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANZxzetPaQ&list=PLUl4u3cNGP... Carl Bender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYNOGk3ZjFM&list=PL43B1963F261E6E47 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYNOGk3ZjFM&list=PL43B1963F2... If you struggle with calculus, I found Herb Gross to be partucularly good Herb Gross: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRWDuduuSw&list=PL3B08AE665AB9002A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRWDuduuSw&list=PL3B08AE665... Of course watch 3blue1brown, alphaphoenix, styropyro etc as well

yawpitch 1y ago

That’s the beauty of Pratchett’s conception of Death… when all else fails, you’ll be met with a smile.

dzdt 1y ago

GNU Terry Pratchett

chrisweekly 1y ago
What's GNU in this context? (Clearly not "Gnu's Not Unix", and it seems like a substitute for RIP...?)
- andyjohnson0 1y ago
  https://xclacksoverhead.org/home/about https://xclacksoverhead.org/home/about
  - chrisweekly 1y ago
    Aha, TIL. Thanks!

zabzonk 1y ago

As far as I can see from the books, what comes next after death is mostly determined by what has gone on before. So, a bit like life, really.

bombcar 1y ago
And as we see often, it’s based on what you truly believe; not what you wished you believed. Something to think about.
- jemmyw 1y ago
  And don't forget your potato

druskacik 1y ago

I always wondered about the idea posed in this short story. Does the "everything that can happen does happen" theory apply to free will? If there really are infinite universes, is there a one when I'm walking a street full of people and out of nowhere we all start singing Ode to Joy in perfect unisono? Or get naked and have a massive orgy? No law of physics rules this out. (Sorry, I'm a layman.)

rmi_ 1y ago
I've always wondered if this (kinda widespread?) theory stems from most people thinking that "infitnity" includes every possible option, which is not true. (I'm a layman, too)
- druskacik 1y ago
  Doesn't infinity include every possible option (possible meaning that it can happen within rules of physics)? If the model of the universe is one where events are happening with some probability, then if the probability is nonzero and the number of universes is infinite, then the event should happen in some of the universes. (Still a layman, though.)
- dzdt 1y ago
  Mathematician here, so educated layman on the physics but expert on infinity if you like. Mathematically, "infinity" doesn't imply every possible option. But in terms of quantum physics, yes it kind of does include every possible option. There is a kind of joke classroom exercise in quantum physics class to calculate the probability that a piano would instantaneously rematerialize a meter away from its previously observed location. Its 10^-[ ridiculous number] but still thats not zero. The size of physical reconfiguration of a person's brain to cause them to break out singing is a much smaller deviation so comparatively likely. So 10^-[somewhat less ridiculous nunber]
  - XorNot 1y ago
    The bigger issue with all those non-zero probabilities is they're meaningless while you still experience actual time as a human...but become pretty damn significant when you experience no time after you die. So tiny probabilities become essentially guarantees unless the heat death of the universe is so thorough as to erase the slight probability that the whole thing pops back into existence.

ivape 1y ago

Makes good sense. If we were like Lions, every action we’d ever do would be roughly correct (can still be a mistake, but not wrong). To echo Death, you can see how I’m failing at describing this because I’m still constrained by right and wrong. For example, a Lion committing infanticide is not immoral. By all definitions of an animal, nothing a human does is immoral. So why are we immoral then?

mapontosevenths 1y ago
> So why are we immoral then? Mostly because it's easier than the alternative. More seriously, you've just described the "moral" of the story of Adam and Eve. In that view of the world our problem is that we understand morality (thanks to that apple eating strumpet) and therefore can make choices. Animals, infants, and the simple-minded have no such concept and therefore can't be held responsible for violating it. This, of course, all nonsense and implies a sort of paternalistic universe, but it was always going to be that way. Everything we know is defined by it's relationship to something else we know, and we don't know God. We know Dad. Fundamentally it's a way to make God seem like less of a child-abusing jerk. A sky-daddy who "punishes" those who understand morality, but grants slack to the cutie-patootie babies and puppies is just nicer for people to believe in.
- ivape 1y ago
  Let’s take God’s punishment unto man from the events of Eden for a moment. If you don’t hold a creature given morality accountable, then that creature is fundamentally the same as a creature that was not given morality. We’d be asking God to “undefine” us. Remember, even with the punishment, most don’t understand the accountability that comes with our extra gift. Let me put it another way. I’ll use the potential of all possibilities, with respect to all possible creations. The potential for a God to create everything is there. So, a Jellyfish, or, a rainbow colored one, or, a giant rainbow colored one. It’s possible a creature with perfect morality could have been created, no morality, some morality, and so on. So, it’s possible to create both a human that will be judged and one that will not be judged. The one that is to be judged can yell and scream “but why but why but why”, to which the answer would be “because, by definition, this is the definition of the thing created”. If it was said that a Lion was to eat antelope, then that is the case. If it was said a Lion was to eat jellybeans only, then that is the case. It’s what was defined. —- If I promote you to CEO but give you none of the powers of a CEO, then I did not make you a CEO. So, we know we were given morality. Why should the definition not be complete with inevitable judgement? We’d be asking to be redefined.

tombert 1y ago

I have been reading through the Discworld books in publication order, and they have been downright delightful. I have only finished the first eleven, but thus far all of them have been fun and most of them have little nuggets of wisdom that really do invite thought into a deeper theme. Thus far my favorite has been Mort, but I also ended up really liking Sourcery as well. I hadn’t read any Pratchett while he was still alive, I hadn’t even heard of him in fact, but given how prolific he was and the level of cleverness in his stories, I wish he was still alive.

jemmyw 1y ago
I wish he was still alive too, but I think the books had come to an end, at least the mainline ones. The problem was he started taking it in a very Victorian direction and I felt like it lost the dark grittiness the earlier books had. He was at his best when riffing off others, Shakespeare and Tolkien and the other influences that were, again, a bigger part of the earlier books. I think it was Going Postal or Monstrous Regiment where I thought to myself I don't look forward to these the same anymore. Before then I would read a new Discworld in one sitting. However, when I look back it was the Truth (book 25) where I felt the direction went off for me, even though I continued to enjoy them. I mean, 25 incredibly funny books is an amazing and wonderful thing anyway (I think Thief of Time 26 was very good).
- Insanity 1y ago
  I haven’t read Discworld. Although funnily enough I worked in a team where our services were named after Discworld characters, so I’m aware of _some_ lore lol. That said.. it’s kind of daunting to start a series with so many books, and I consider myself a prolific reader (~30-40 books per year).
  - jemmyw 1y ago
    The problem with starting is that the very early books aren't that well written. They're funny and imaginative and great stories, but the actual text is a bit difficult. I found this out when reading them out loud to my oldest who was a bit slow to reading (fine now).

nachox999 1y ago

It appears to me unnecessary to say much about the terrors of death. The subject has been sufficiently enlarged upon by various writers; besides, every one knows and feels for himself that life is sweet and death is bitter. However old a man may be, however broken in health, however miserable his circumstances, the thought of death is an unwelcome one. There are three principal reasons why all sensible people fear death so much: First, because the love of life, the dread of death is inherent in human nature. Secondly, because every rational being is well aware that death is bitter, and the separation of soul and body cannot take place without inexpressible suffering. Thirdly, because no one knows whither he will go after death

drbojingle 1y ago
We also recover from many things so being sick once more is something we might recover from. Some know it's a there time and other really could have years so hope plays a part too
state_less 1y ago
Have you considered who you would be without your fear? What if you had nothing to fear and nothing to doubt?
- nachox999 1y ago
  Without fear I would probably be a sociopath, without doubts a proudful egomaniac with god complex
  - state_less 1y ago
    That's interesting! I'm supposing you've been really afraid before, and you'll know it's quite an agitated state to be in. So normally, without fear, folks will be more at peace, more at ease. As far as sociopaths and egomaniacs go, my experience is that they are usually quite fearful, though they try to mask it with compensating measures. You might feel bad for them if they weren't so often spoiling other peoples fun with their antics.
1y ago

megaloblasto 1y ago

"Life is beautiful. Really, it is. Full of beauty and illusions. Life is great. Without it, you'd be dead." -- Gummo

hshshshshsh 1y ago

There is no death. It's just an idea in awareness. You were dead for infinity. How can you be dead for infinity and alive now. Makes no sense. Only explanation is it's infinite. 0 - 1 second alive is not 1 second. It's infinite.

margalabargala 1y ago
How can this plum I'm holding have been not a plum for infinity, but is a plum now? Makes no sense. Clearly it is infinitely a plum.
- hshshshshsh 1y ago
  There is nothing called plum. All there is experience. Changing experience. Appearing in awareness. The awareness is constant. Among time. Only constant.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    I dunno, I'm holding this thing and I'm calling it a plum. Also, I was definitely not aware when sleeping last night, so that doesn't seem right either.
  - qualeed 1y ago
    While I understand each of the words you have written, I have no idea what you are trying to say. What would you suggest I do with this information? I get the impression that you were trying for something cryptic and profound sounding, but went a little too overboard and lost the underlying message, leaving the reader trying to decipher a bunch of meaningless 2 to 4 word sentences.
    - hshshshshsh 1y ago
      The master appears when student is ready. But if you are serious look into advaita or madhyamaka.

jackdoe 1y ago

Ignoring the moral question in the story, many people are satisfied by saying "haha funny, the cat is both dead and alive" and they just move on. Reading Pratchett for almost 30 years, it has fueled quite an interested in quantum mechanics in me, he subtly introduces QM teasers in almost every book I read. Particularly Mort. As I dropped out of highschool, I didnt have the luck to properly study physics, but in my 30s, I my existential crisis hit, as they say, a man dies twice, and the stupid half dead cat wouldn't leave me alone. And one night the omnipotent youtube algorithm recommended Susskind's lectures to me, then Feynman, Shankar, .. it just kept going. Now I watch and re-watch them but take screenshots and send them to claude when I am confused (which is still most of the time). If you are a layman like me and just want to know what is up with the cat, I encourage you to watch Sean Carroll's lectures (dont miss the Q&A videos) and it will for sure allow you to ask at least better questions. I love that cat so much. --- Sean Carroll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI09kat_GeI&list=PLrxfgDEc2NxZJcWcrxH3jyjUUrJlnoyzX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI09kat_GeI&list=PLrxfgDEc2N... Richard Feynman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kFOXP026eE&list=PLS3_1JNX8dEh5YcO-Y05stU0u_T9nqIlF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kFOXP026eE&list=PLS3_1JNX8d... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAnnEiAjN6U&list=PLYZ3-8b-4zqGT2hQQBEDSW07iU_oHS3jF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAnnEiAjN6U&list=PLYZ3-8b-4z... Leonard Susskind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyX8kQ-JzHI&list=PL6i60qoDQhQGaGbbg-4aSwXJvxOqO6o5e https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyX8kQ-JzHI&list=PL6i60qoDQh... Ramamurti Shankar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eFv7ne_Q&list=PLF366409F51FF3CA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eFv7ne_Q&list=PLF366409F5... Barton Zwiebach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANZxzetPaQ&list=PLUl4u3cNGP60cspQn3N9dYRPiyVWDd80G https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANZxzetPaQ&list=PLUl4u3cNGP... Carl Bender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYNOGk3ZjFM&list=PL43B1963F261E6E47 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYNOGk3ZjFM&list=PL43B1963F2... If you struggle with calculus, I found Herb Gross to be partucularly good Herb Gross: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRWDuduuSw&list=PL3B08AE665AB9002A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRWDuduuSw&list=PL3B08AE665... Of course watch 3blue1brown, alphaphoenix, styropyro etc as well