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Not saying this is the case, but sometimes, if CPS is involved in an inane-sounding investigation, it's because they were involved before in a less-inane invest

Not saying this is the case, but sometimes, if CPS is involved in an inane-sounding investigation, it's because they were involved before in a less-inane investigation. A person with a history of neglect can _say_ they were adopting a free range parenting style, but if they had a kid die in a hot car two years ago, you can understand how CPS would watch more closely. I saw an article floating around about a couple that were prosecuted for letting their child cross a street alone to go to a store, but it was actually a highway and one of their other kids had died on that highway a few years ago. Having been involved in the foster care system before, I can tell you, no parent believes they were doing anything wrong, ever. They almost all exclusively believe they were being unfairly targeted for past transgressions or unfair accusations. That happens, but given how everyone says that, it's not a good signal. Yes, this may not be the case in this article, or even in most cases, but it is something to consider about human nature.

bobthepanda 1y ago
Is that the fault of the parent, or is the state trying to cover up incredibly bad transportation and land use planning? Kids should just be able to walk to stores without getting hit by cars. It is basically crazy how car obsession has turned America into such an unsafe place for children, and the statistics show it; > In 1969, 48 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. In 2009, 13 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_walking_and_bicycling.cfm http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_...
- porridgeraisin 1y ago
  Is that stat accounting for distance to school? I.e is it comparing within the same distances(ranges of)?
  - estearum 1y ago
    You’re describing the same problem. The distance is the issue. This is the result of decisions we’ve made and that we can unmake.
    - porridgeraisin 1y ago
      In that case, is there data that shows people walking to schools when it is sufficiently close to them? If not, then distance is not a relevant factor, and some other things like civil unsafety can be looked at as potential reasons.
      - estearum 1y ago
        You're asking for data that shows that people walk to schools when they're close? Seems self evident that if you're half a block from school 0% of people will drive and if you're 15 miles from a school, 100% of people will drive. But okay... Distance and traffic danger (also a function of urban planning decisions) are by far the strongest predictor of whether kids walk to school. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10917142/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10917142/
        porridgeraisin 1y ago
        > self evident not if there are other factors e.g lack of civil safety. But yes, the data does show that most things are held relatively equal when grouping reasons into <1mile and >1mile. So distance seems to be the clear factor. Nice article.
        bobthepanda 1y ago
        One other thing to note is that in older suburbs, there tends to be a school within the boundary of the arterial road grid, which is often about mile spacing, so increasing the distance to school also substantially increases the amount of heavy traffic streets to walk alongside or cross.
- abbycurtis33 1y ago
  It's the size of an empire, there are going to be highways.
  - bobthepanda 1y ago
    America is pretty unique in that highways plow through urban and suburban areas with few safe crossings. Urban arterial roads (not quite streets, not quite interstates or grade separated freeways) account for half of all crashes in the US.
- jvanderbot 1y ago
  this is a matter of opinion, but ... Yes, streets should be safer. No, that does not mean we should just let everyone act like they are safe, when we all know they are not.
  - ta1243 1y ago
    The more cycling on a street, the safer the street. The causation is in that direction.
    - jvanderbot 1y ago
      We've departed far afield from the topic of conversation if we're talking about adding bikes to make streets safer.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- mschuster91 1y ago
  > Kids should just be able to walk to stores without getting hit by cars. The problem specifically for stores is, small classic mom'n'pop stores cannot compete with big retailers like Walmart, Costco and whatnot - they simply cannot get even close to the scale of purchase that the big ones do, and so people prefer to use cars to get to a big retailer because it is more economical.
  - InitialLastName 1y ago
    It's not just purchasing scale that prevents smaller businesses from competing; the infrastructure that supports those big box stores is heavily subsidized at the municipal, state, inter-corporate and federal levels in a way that is unattainable for local businesses.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      It's not that it's subsidized so much as that 1-500k of hoop jumping makes financial sense when your goal is to turn a forested lot on the side of the highways into a Costco or Target or some other Mecca for people with lots of money to spend. The amount of hoop jumping is the same if you're putting in a family mini golf with a restaurant and bumper cars. But you'll never make it back so the development never happens...
      - InitialLastName 1y ago
        Municipalities and states frequently offer tax abatements, pay to build the road and utility infrastructure to the middle of nowhere, and rebate sales taxes in ways that they never would for even a non-brand-name store, much less a store that could fit in the middle of the town.
        aaronbaugher 1y ago
        True. My town did that for Walmart 30 years ago, and recently did it again for Amazon. Meanwhile, small businesses that have served the area for decades get no breaks. They also tried to stick a massive apartment building in a nice nearby residential neighborhood to house the cheap workers Amazon will bring in, but the residents caught wind of it and managed to get it stopped. For now.
- IMTDb 1y ago
  > Is that the fault of the parent [...] ? Yes, it is. You can complain all you want about land allocation, but when there are 2 tons vehicles going 100+ Kmh/h somewhere and it's closed to pedestrian you don't let your kid got there. Period. Similarly, if they are reintroducing wolves and grizzlis in a forest near you, and they close it off for trails etc, you don't organize a weekend camping trip there. Sometimes it's about common sense, stop blaming "society and the government" for your inability to function as a reasonable human being.
  - normalaccess 1y ago
    Bingo. What happened to teaching your kids to not play in the street?
    - Gud 1y ago
      When I grew up we used to play in the streets all the time.
      - IMTDb 1y ago
        How many hours did you spend playing on the highway ?
      - normalaccess 1y ago
        Well, they are for cars. So play at your own risk. I played in the streets and rode my bike every summer day (still do just not as much). But I also knew that 2000lbs of steel traveling at 30mph is not going to stop for me so my life was in my hands and I needed to be vigilant.
        jacquesm 1y ago
        > Well, they are for cars. That's a mistake, I think. They are for traffic and that includes kids, adult pedestrians, people on bikes, people with dogs, mopeds, and yes, cars. And as the driver of one of those you have a responsibility towards all those lesser protected members of society.
wnevets 1y ago
> I saw an article floating around about a couple that were prosecuted for letting their child cross a street alone to go to a store, but it was actually a highway and one of their other kids had died on that highway a few years ago. Anyone that suggest agencies like CPS are overflowing with time and money to target random parents over minor things like letting a child cross a street isn't a serious person.
- estearum 1y ago
  Anyone that suggests poor enforcement prioritization can only stem from an overflow of time and money isn’t a serious person.
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  Sorry this is false. There are tons of reports of CPS investigating normal parenting practices or imposing invasive reporting plans and things like that. CPS in most jurisdictions is in fact overflowing with time and money, and is staffed with low intelligence nosy incompetent types that couldn’t get a better job. Search your social media of choice and you’ll find so many absurd examples.
  - wnevets 1y ago
    > Search your social media of choice and you’ll find so many absurd examples. This is exactly what the original commenter is talking about.
  - jmye 1y ago
    Man, your social media feed is largely bullshit. How have we gotten to a point where people are legitimately thinking “I saw a Tweet about it, so it obviously happened exactly as written, and no one has ever boosted infuriating content to make a buck”? Like, is it a willful decision to not think critically about anything, ever?
- axus 1y ago
  CPS is legally obligated to investigate all reports of neglect. The targeting is done by the people reporting the children. I'm not opposed to rare government intrusions into peoples lives, but there must be well-defined rules about when those intrusions happen, and what standards they are enforcing.
themaninthedark 1y ago
I think CPS system is just broken: there are well intentioned people there but also busybodies that enjoy power but between the two, you end still end up with horrific cases of kids dying from neglect with multiple reports. >"He would come and get a drink of water and then he would casually take his cup and throw it in the trash that was there where they dump their trays. And then you would see him digging through the garbage," Davis said. "At that point, if the little kid is hungry, I'm going to buy his lunch ticket." >Davis said she and a co-worker started paying for Gavin's lunch, despite being "advised" by school officials not to do so because the school wanted to encourage families in hardship to fill out a form for reduced or free lunch. Teachers and admin are mandatory reporters... >Over the course of several months, Davis said she and other cafeteria workers made multiple calls to school officials and the Utah Division of Child and Family Services to report their concerns. >"First we went through the channels. The head lunch lady knew what was going on. She said the principal had to take care of it. We reported it to the principal," Davis said, adding that later they also called DCFS directly. https://www.ksl.com/article/51077343/the-system-is-broken-cafeteria-worker-saw-disturbing-signs-before-death-of-12-year-old-boy https://www.ksl.com/article/51077343/the-system-is-broken-ca... I looked for follow up but aside for the parents being rightfully charged, what was done regarding the system? Anyone fired for not reporting? Not following up? From what I see, "It's a tragedy" and then same as before.
- aidenn0 1y ago
  I'm a former foster-parent, so have interacted with my local CWS system pretty heavily. Don't forget that the system is made up of humans. Which social worker investigates (and how well socialized the parent is) can make a huge difference in when an intervention happens, and what the intervention is. We had child that was removed on the very first report to CWS, after the social worker interviewed the mother and was not satisfied. We also had a child that was removed only after the 17th report, made by a total of about half a dozen people (including every single preschool teacher), with all the reports being consistent with each other. The child was only removed because the mother was smoking meth when the CWS worker showed up. The social worker had shown up several times previously, but was satisfied after interviewing the mother.

bobthepanda 1y ago

Is that the fault of the parent, or is the state trying to cover up incredibly bad transportation and land use planning? Kids should just be able to walk to stores without getting hit by cars. It is basically crazy how car obsession has turned America into such an unsafe place for children, and the statistics show it; > In 1969, 48 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. In 2009, 13 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_walking_and_bicycling.cfm http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_...

porridgeraisin 1y ago
Is that stat accounting for distance to school? I.e is it comparing within the same distances(ranges of)?
- estearum 1y ago
  You’re describing the same problem. The distance is the issue. This is the result of decisions we’ve made and that we can unmake.
  - porridgeraisin 1y ago
    In that case, is there data that shows people walking to schools when it is sufficiently close to them? If not, then distance is not a relevant factor, and some other things like civil unsafety can be looked at as potential reasons.
    - estearum 1y ago
      You're asking for data that shows that people walk to schools when they're close? Seems self evident that if you're half a block from school 0% of people will drive and if you're 15 miles from a school, 100% of people will drive. But okay... Distance and traffic danger (also a function of urban planning decisions) are by far the strongest predictor of whether kids walk to school. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10917142/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10917142/
      - porridgeraisin 1y ago
        > self evident not if there are other factors e.g lack of civil safety. But yes, the data does show that most things are held relatively equal when grouping reasons into <1mile and >1mile. So distance seems to be the clear factor. Nice article.
        bobthepanda 1y ago
        One other thing to note is that in older suburbs, there tends to be a school within the boundary of the arterial road grid, which is often about mile spacing, so increasing the distance to school also substantially increases the amount of heavy traffic streets to walk alongside or cross.
abbycurtis33 1y ago
It's the size of an empire, there are going to be highways.
- bobthepanda 1y ago
  America is pretty unique in that highways plow through urban and suburban areas with few safe crossings. Urban arterial roads (not quite streets, not quite interstates or grade separated freeways) account for half of all crashes in the US.
jvanderbot 1y ago
this is a matter of opinion, but ... Yes, streets should be safer. No, that does not mean we should just let everyone act like they are safe, when we all know they are not.
- ta1243 1y ago
  The more cycling on a street, the safer the street. The causation is in that direction.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    We've departed far afield from the topic of conversation if we're talking about adding bikes to make streets safer.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
mschuster91 1y ago
> Kids should just be able to walk to stores without getting hit by cars. The problem specifically for stores is, small classic mom'n'pop stores cannot compete with big retailers like Walmart, Costco and whatnot - they simply cannot get even close to the scale of purchase that the big ones do, and so people prefer to use cars to get to a big retailer because it is more economical.
- InitialLastName 1y ago
  It's not just purchasing scale that prevents smaller businesses from competing; the infrastructure that supports those big box stores is heavily subsidized at the municipal, state, inter-corporate and federal levels in a way that is unattainable for local businesses.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    It's not that it's subsidized so much as that 1-500k of hoop jumping makes financial sense when your goal is to turn a forested lot on the side of the highways into a Costco or Target or some other Mecca for people with lots of money to spend. The amount of hoop jumping is the same if you're putting in a family mini golf with a restaurant and bumper cars. But you'll never make it back so the development never happens...
    - InitialLastName 1y ago
      Municipalities and states frequently offer tax abatements, pay to build the road and utility infrastructure to the middle of nowhere, and rebate sales taxes in ways that they never would for even a non-brand-name store, much less a store that could fit in the middle of the town.
      - aaronbaugher 1y ago
        True. My town did that for Walmart 30 years ago, and recently did it again for Amazon. Meanwhile, small businesses that have served the area for decades get no breaks. They also tried to stick a massive apartment building in a nice nearby residential neighborhood to house the cheap workers Amazon will bring in, but the residents caught wind of it and managed to get it stopped. For now.
IMTDb 1y ago
> Is that the fault of the parent [...] ? Yes, it is. You can complain all you want about land allocation, but when there are 2 tons vehicles going 100+ Kmh/h somewhere and it's closed to pedestrian you don't let your kid got there. Period. Similarly, if they are reintroducing wolves and grizzlis in a forest near you, and they close it off for trails etc, you don't organize a weekend camping trip there. Sometimes it's about common sense, stop blaming "society and the government" for your inability to function as a reasonable human being.
- normalaccess 1y ago
  Bingo. What happened to teaching your kids to not play in the street?
  - Gud 1y ago
    When I grew up we used to play in the streets all the time.
    - IMTDb 1y ago
      How many hours did you spend playing on the highway ?
    - normalaccess 1y ago
      Well, they are for cars. So play at your own risk. I played in the streets and rode my bike every summer day (still do just not as much). But I also knew that 2000lbs of steel traveling at 30mph is not going to stop for me so my life was in my hands and I needed to be vigilant.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        > Well, they are for cars. That's a mistake, I think. They are for traffic and that includes kids, adult pedestrians, people on bikes, people with dogs, mopeds, and yes, cars. And as the driver of one of those you have a responsibility towards all those lesser protected members of society.

wnevets 1y ago

> I saw an article floating around about a couple that were prosecuted for letting their child cross a street alone to go to a store, but it was actually a highway and one of their other kids had died on that highway a few years ago. Anyone that suggest agencies like CPS are overflowing with time and money to target random parents over minor things like letting a child cross a street isn't a serious person.

estearum 1y ago
Anyone that suggests poor enforcement prioritization can only stem from an overflow of time and money isn’t a serious person.
SilverElfin 1y ago
Sorry this is false. There are tons of reports of CPS investigating normal parenting practices or imposing invasive reporting plans and things like that. CPS in most jurisdictions is in fact overflowing with time and money, and is staffed with low intelligence nosy incompetent types that couldn’t get a better job. Search your social media of choice and you’ll find so many absurd examples.
- wnevets 1y ago
  > Search your social media of choice and you’ll find so many absurd examples. This is exactly what the original commenter is talking about.
- jmye 1y ago
  Man, your social media feed is largely bullshit. How have we gotten to a point where people are legitimately thinking “I saw a Tweet about it, so it obviously happened exactly as written, and no one has ever boosted infuriating content to make a buck”? Like, is it a willful decision to not think critically about anything, ever?
axus 1y ago
CPS is legally obligated to investigate all reports of neglect. The targeting is done by the people reporting the children. I'm not opposed to rare government intrusions into peoples lives, but there must be well-defined rules about when those intrusions happen, and what standards they are enforcing.

themaninthedark 1y ago

I think CPS system is just broken: there are well intentioned people there but also busybodies that enjoy power but between the two, you end still end up with horrific cases of kids dying from neglect with multiple reports. >"He would come and get a drink of water and then he would casually take his cup and throw it in the trash that was there where they dump their trays. And then you would see him digging through the garbage," Davis said. "At that point, if the little kid is hungry, I'm going to buy his lunch ticket." >Davis said she and a co-worker started paying for Gavin's lunch, despite being "advised" by school officials not to do so because the school wanted to encourage families in hardship to fill out a form for reduced or free lunch. Teachers and admin are mandatory reporters... >Over the course of several months, Davis said she and other cafeteria workers made multiple calls to school officials and the Utah Division of Child and Family Services to report their concerns. >"First we went through the channels. The head lunch lady knew what was going on. She said the principal had to take care of it. We reported it to the principal," Davis said, adding that later they also called DCFS directly. https://www.ksl.com/article/51077343/the-system-is-broken-cafeteria-worker-saw-disturbing-signs-before-death-of-12-year-old-boy https://www.ksl.com/article/51077343/the-system-is-broken-ca... I looked for follow up but aside for the parents being rightfully charged, what was done regarding the system? Anyone fired for not reporting? Not following up? From what I see, "It's a tragedy" and then same as before.

aidenn0 1y ago
I'm a former foster-parent, so have interacted with my local CWS system pretty heavily. Don't forget that the system is made up of humans. Which social worker investigates (and how well socialized the parent is) can make a huge difference in when an intervention happens, and what the intervention is. We had child that was removed on the very first report to CWS, after the social worker interviewed the mother and was not satisfied. We also had a child that was removed only after the 17th report, made by a total of about half a dozen people (including every single preschool teacher), with all the reports being consistent with each other. The child was only removed because the mother was smoking meth when the CWS worker showed up. The social worker had shown up several times previously, but was satisfied after interviewing the mother.