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I would like to see some legal and regulatory steps. When we purchased our Ioniq, there was no agreement for data sharing, etc. - we have basically a cash regis

I would like to see some legal and regulatory steps. When we purchased our Ioniq, there was no agreement for data sharing, etc. - we have basically a cash register receipt, nothing more. Whenever there is a major update, an insanely long T&A appears on the screen. No one is going to read it. The only options are "accept" or clicking it away. If you click it away, it comes back the next day. It cannot possibly be legal for them to basically force T&A - a one-sided contract change - on customers.

lynx97 1y ago
I've been told T&A after you bought a product is actually not legal in the EU. The popups still appear, and everyone clicks thorugh. It can't be legal. Whatever they want me to agree with, they have to force me at checkout time. Everything beyond that is plain ransomeware.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  It kind of depends; there's a difference between Europe and the EU, for one. But there are also things you can hide away in the T&C and privacy statements, while other stuff (usually involving PII) needs explicit consent and opt-outs. The EU mandates the presence of an emergency cellular radio on board of new vehicles in case of crashes. It took some convincing, but that radio is now supposed to be off by default. You can demand a refund for Windows keys that came along with your computer if you disagree with the ToS (which has been tested by a French court IIRC), and that ability is actually included in the Windows EULA these days, but getting that kind of thing enforced will be draining. Repeated calls and repeated emails at the very least, filing complaints and threatening legal action if the vendor doesn't want to comply.
LightBug1 1y ago
Thanks for the heads-up ... I've been drooling over an ioniq 5 (ideally N) for quite some time as an excellent alternative to the Douche-la. But this kind of thing really puts me off ... I've been maintaining a 2005 Toyota and a 1969 Vw Beetle ... no worries about fucking T&C's or T&A's ... looks like I'll continue the maintenance regime, which I kind of enjoy anyway.
- alchemist1e9 1y ago
  Nissan Leafs are I think the most DIY friendly EVs, certainly 1st generation, and also 2nd, but 3rd generation that is coming soon … not so much. Anyway 1st and 2nd can definitely be completely offline and there are significant online communities of tinkerers and even open source tools to interact with them.
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
This is the kinda of thing that was preventing me from seriously considering Tesla. I accept that there is a lot more tech involved so some updates are necessary, but turning cars into cells on wheels made everyone way too eager to not ship finished product.
- phkahler 1y ago
  >> but turning cars into cells on wheels made everyone way too eager to not ship finished product. I knew a former manager of OTA (over the air updates) at one manufacturer. I said that needed to be used for emergency updates only and not so people could be late with features or QA. She totally agreed and said it was becoming a battle with all the software teams thinking it meant they could be late and it'd be OK. They think it makes the deadline fuzzy or non-existant.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    I looked at a company that did this stuff with a box that could remotely power up/down and unlock / lock a vehicle. They never even thought to check whether the vehicle was in motion or not, that's how confident they were that they'd never ever make a mistake.
- BizarroLand 1y ago
  If there's one device/product in my life that I do not want to have reliant on CI/CD, that I want delivered to me in a fully finished and ready to go condition where I can trust that absent material breakdown will stay exactly the same, it's my car. Update your apps all you want. Change the layout. Betray your users and sell their data to AI, whatever, the consequences are on you. Update my car, change its performance or range or the layouts of the buttons in the infotainment system so that I might be distracted or expecting an outcome that is suddenly no longer possible and I or the people I injure in the accident have to live with the consequences for the rest of our lives.
- m463 1y ago
  I would love for there to be a robust jailbreak community for tesla cars. I've also heard that the defunct fisker cars might have this sort of hacking community - you might be able to get the source code for the car.
eitally 1y ago
I recently had a similarly unfriendly experience in my inlaws' new Lexus, which has an accompanying mobile app for vehicle management and some advanced setup features. How did we learn about this almost completely required app & mobile setup process? If you start driving with Google Maps via Android Auto it will terminate the AA interface after a few minute and replace it with a nag screen about setting up the Lexus mobile software. There is no alternative but to comply.
- MichaelZuo 1y ago
  Is there truly no way to disable the nag screen for those that don’t care about the advanced features?
- ethagnawl 1y ago
  > There is no alternative but to comply. Maybe not within the confines of the head unit but you can still stick your phone onto the dash like I do in my (dumb) cars.
  - netsharc 1y ago
    I bought a 2020 car recently. It comes with Android Auto, whereas previously I'd just mount my phone to the dashboard. But with Android Auto, every time the voice gives out a navigation instruction, music playing from the infotainment is paused; in my previous car the voice would play from my phone, on top of the music coming out of the car's sound system. So I've ordered a mount so I can mount my phone to the car again...
    - account42 1y ago
      Android auto also prevents you from typing in a new destination while driving. Because no one ever has a passenger that can do that for you, right?
  - integralid 1y ago
    The story is still infuriating. You can't use what you paid for, unless you comply with what the manufacturer wants.
ryandrake 1y ago
We need judges to start growing a backbone and declaring these one-sided "agreements" unconscionable. The company has outsized power over the purchaser, the terms tend to be one-sided, and there is no meaningful choice to the purchaser. These things should be clear cut cases of unconscionability, and judges should be throwing them out left and right and penalizing the companies who try to push them.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  Absent something like a component of the GDPR, I'd highly doubt the judiciary in any country is going to originate a major civil right. The correct place ELA / T&A consent should be defined is in something like the GDPR -- along with strict requirements as to what standard of consumer free choice is required for it to be enforceable.
  - mox1 1y ago
    I would prefer to take it broader and codify it in law that: 1. The terms and conditions of a product, service, etc. "primarily" aimed at a consumer have simple, human readable terms. Like a food label or similar to the broadband label. 2. The terms are presented and acknowledged PRIOR to purchasing (not after opening the package, driving off the lot, putting the DVD into the player). The company needs to find a way to deliver the T&C's before purchase. If you need me to agree to 50 pages things before I can use your product, I didn't really purchase it, I am receiving a license to use it.... 3. If these terms and conditions will be changed retroactively (for existing customers) that must be optional, opt-in and not required to continue to use the product. I think this would stop a lot of the shenanigans companies pull on end users, that they DON'T pull in B2B environments.
    - ryandrake 1y ago
      This still puts the company too much in the driver's seat. An actual "contract" or "agreement" is supposed to be a meeting of the minds between two parties. It's not simply one-sided terms dictated by one party without opportunity for the other party to negotiate. And each party should have negotiating power and choice beyond "take it or leave it". And, before you dismiss this idea with "Ha ha imagine if every cell phone provider had a custom, bespoke, negotiated contract with each customer! It can't be done!" If providing real negotiating power and choice to your customer is too much of an overhead burden, then maybe the company should not be allowed to make the "agreement" a condition for buying/using the product.

lynx97 1y ago

I've been told T&A after you bought a product is actually not legal in the EU. The popups still appear, and everyone clicks thorugh. It can't be legal. Whatever they want me to agree with, they have to force me at checkout time. Everything beyond that is plain ransomeware.

jeroenhd 1y ago
It kind of depends; there's a difference between Europe and the EU, for one. But there are also things you can hide away in the T&C and privacy statements, while other stuff (usually involving PII) needs explicit consent and opt-outs. The EU mandates the presence of an emergency cellular radio on board of new vehicles in case of crashes. It took some convincing, but that radio is now supposed to be off by default. You can demand a refund for Windows keys that came along with your computer if you disagree with the ToS (which has been tested by a French court IIRC), and that ability is actually included in the Windows EULA these days, but getting that kind of thing enforced will be draining. Repeated calls and repeated emails at the very least, filing complaints and threatening legal action if the vendor doesn't want to comply.

LightBug1 1y ago

Thanks for the heads-up ... I've been drooling over an ioniq 5 (ideally N) for quite some time as an excellent alternative to the Douche-la. But this kind of thing really puts me off ... I've been maintaining a 2005 Toyota and a 1969 Vw Beetle ... no worries about fucking T&C's or T&A's ... looks like I'll continue the maintenance regime, which I kind of enjoy anyway.

alchemist1e9 1y ago
Nissan Leafs are I think the most DIY friendly EVs, certainly 1st generation, and also 2nd, but 3rd generation that is coming soon … not so much. Anyway 1st and 2nd can definitely be completely offline and there are significant online communities of tinkerers and even open source tools to interact with them.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago

This is the kinda of thing that was preventing me from seriously considering Tesla. I accept that there is a lot more tech involved so some updates are necessary, but turning cars into cells on wheels made everyone way too eager to not ship finished product.

phkahler 1y ago
>> but turning cars into cells on wheels made everyone way too eager to not ship finished product. I knew a former manager of OTA (over the air updates) at one manufacturer. I said that needed to be used for emergency updates only and not so people could be late with features or QA. She totally agreed and said it was becoming a battle with all the software teams thinking it meant they could be late and it'd be OK. They think it makes the deadline fuzzy or non-existant.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  I looked at a company that did this stuff with a box that could remotely power up/down and unlock / lock a vehicle. They never even thought to check whether the vehicle was in motion or not, that's how confident they were that they'd never ever make a mistake.
BizarroLand 1y ago
If there's one device/product in my life that I do not want to have reliant on CI/CD, that I want delivered to me in a fully finished and ready to go condition where I can trust that absent material breakdown will stay exactly the same, it's my car. Update your apps all you want. Change the layout. Betray your users and sell their data to AI, whatever, the consequences are on you. Update my car, change its performance or range or the layouts of the buttons in the infotainment system so that I might be distracted or expecting an outcome that is suddenly no longer possible and I or the people I injure in the accident have to live with the consequences for the rest of our lives.
m463 1y ago
I would love for there to be a robust jailbreak community for tesla cars. I've also heard that the defunct fisker cars might have this sort of hacking community - you might be able to get the source code for the car.

eitally 1y ago

I recently had a similarly unfriendly experience in my inlaws' new Lexus, which has an accompanying mobile app for vehicle management and some advanced setup features. How did we learn about this almost completely required app & mobile setup process? If you start driving with Google Maps via Android Auto it will terminate the AA interface after a few minute and replace it with a nag screen about setting up the Lexus mobile software. There is no alternative but to comply.

MichaelZuo 1y ago
Is there truly no way to disable the nag screen for those that don’t care about the advanced features?
ethagnawl 1y ago
> There is no alternative but to comply. Maybe not within the confines of the head unit but you can still stick your phone onto the dash like I do in my (dumb) cars.
- netsharc 1y ago
  I bought a 2020 car recently. It comes with Android Auto, whereas previously I'd just mount my phone to the dashboard. But with Android Auto, every time the voice gives out a navigation instruction, music playing from the infotainment is paused; in my previous car the voice would play from my phone, on top of the music coming out of the car's sound system. So I've ordered a mount so I can mount my phone to the car again...
  - account42 1y ago
    Android auto also prevents you from typing in a new destination while driving. Because no one ever has a passenger that can do that for you, right?
- integralid 1y ago
  The story is still infuriating. You can't use what you paid for, unless you comply with what the manufacturer wants.

ryandrake 1y ago

We need judges to start growing a backbone and declaring these one-sided "agreements" unconscionable. The company has outsized power over the purchaser, the terms tend to be one-sided, and there is no meaningful choice to the purchaser. These things should be clear cut cases of unconscionability, and judges should be throwing them out left and right and penalizing the companies who try to push them.

ethbr1 1y ago
Absent something like a component of the GDPR, I'd highly doubt the judiciary in any country is going to originate a major civil right. The correct place ELA / T&A consent should be defined is in something like the GDPR -- along with strict requirements as to what standard of consumer free choice is required for it to be enforceable.
- mox1 1y ago
  I would prefer to take it broader and codify it in law that: 1. The terms and conditions of a product, service, etc. "primarily" aimed at a consumer have simple, human readable terms. Like a food label or similar to the broadband label. 2. The terms are presented and acknowledged PRIOR to purchasing (not after opening the package, driving off the lot, putting the DVD into the player). The company needs to find a way to deliver the T&C's before purchase. If you need me to agree to 50 pages things before I can use your product, I didn't really purchase it, I am receiving a license to use it.... 3. If these terms and conditions will be changed retroactively (for existing customers) that must be optional, opt-in and not required to continue to use the product. I think this would stop a lot of the shenanigans companies pull on end users, that they DON'T pull in B2B environments.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    This still puts the company too much in the driver's seat. An actual "contract" or "agreement" is supposed to be a meeting of the minds between two parties. It's not simply one-sided terms dictated by one party without opportunity for the other party to negotiate. And each party should have negotiating power and choice beyond "take it or leave it". And, before you dismiss this idea with "Ha ha imagine if every cell phone provider had a custom, bespoke, negotiated contract with each customer! It can't be done!" If providing real negotiating power and choice to your customer is too much of an overhead burden, then maybe the company should not be allowed to make the "agreement" a condition for buying/using the product.