4 ms·

I always wondered why WW1 started. Maybe they were coked up?

by tim333 1y ago

gattilorenz 1y ago
WW1 started (among other things) because the "superpowers" in Europe had been arming each other for quite a while in fear of aggression from the other superpowers (not completely unreasonable, given the wars of the previous century). This, in turn, forced the other superpowers to invest more in armaments and army. To top it off, they made treaties of alliance/military intervention (the Triple Alliance and the Triple Entente). The assassination of the archduke was like flipping a light switch in a house saturated with gas. Austria declares war to Serbia, which is defended by Russia, so Germany has to declare war to Russia; Germany expects France to join Russia so they declare war to France, but their battle plans to conquer France require passing through Belgium. The UK needs Belgium to remain neutral, so they declare war to Germany... and so on. Once the wheels are in motion, and everyone is ready for war, war just happens - whether coke is there or not.
- tim333 1y ago
  Yeah but if they'd been smoking weed they would have said yeah whatever - I'll have a look at it tomorrow, when Franz Ferdinand got assassinated.
  - tonmoy 1y ago
    Something similar happened during WW2 I guess
    - nobody9999 1y ago
      cf. Amphetamine use/distribution in World War II[0][1][2] [0] https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/preview-world-war-speed/4337/ https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/preview-world-war-speed/433... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetamines#Military_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substit... [2] https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1127&context=madrush https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1127...
    - NoobSaibot135 1y ago
      Not sure how accurate this is but there’s a book on how Adolf/Nazi’s were experimenting with hard drugs at that time. https://www.amazon.ca/Blitzed-Norman-Whiteside-Shaun-Ohler/dp/1328663795 https://www.amazon.ca/Blitzed-Norman-Whiteside-Shaun-Ohler/d... They say Hitler was very charismatic, inspiring and a great public speaker. I seriously wonder how much drugs he was on at the time and how much that boosted and projected his own confidence (and then subsequently inspired all of his fellow countrymen Germans)?
  - BaseBaal 1y ago
    Even if the ruling class was high off their tits on whatever substance probably had little to do with anything. Most likely the drug that had the most influence was, and still is, the lust for power.
- zokier 1y ago
  That is the canonical schoolbook explanation of ww1, but I don't like how it frames the war as almost inevitable. Notably the Austro-German alliance was only fully formalized during the July Crisis when Germany offered unconditional support for Austrian war ambitions. While Austria and Germany were part of Triple Alliance, it alone would have not made German entry to war inevitable, as evidenced by Italy (the third member of Triple Alliance). With Germany having major role in both modern drug history (e.g. Merck with morphine and cocaine, Bayer with Heroin) and their decisive role in the beginning of WW1, I think it is legitimate to ask if substance abuse had role in the hawkishness of German leadership. Quick Google indicates that there is no strong evidence for Wilhem II themselves using significant amount of drugs, but less is known about the other high officials and generals.
- aznumeric 1y ago
  Kinda like today. Europe is rearming in response to perceived risks from Russia. Then the “when you have a hammer…” effect: once capabilities exist, actors start seeing situations where using them seems rational—procurement begets posture, posture begets use-cases.
  - meindnoch 1y ago
    What a generous use of the word "perceived".
  - Ma8ee 1y ago
    While I can't say I'm completely calm about the situation in Europe, it is very different from the onset of any of the two world wars. Europe is mostly united against the external enemy Russia, and the few countries that aren't 100% on the train is too small to really make any difference.
  - gattilorenz 1y ago
    There certainly are similarities. On the other hand, we Europeans have tried to appease Russia for two decades, and it did not make it a less belligerent neighbor.
  - CamperBob2 1y ago
    "Perceived"
cjs_ac 1y ago
A man called Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.
- darreninthenet 1y ago
  Baldrick!
bell-cot 1y ago
One can make an excellent argument that WWI started because Germany's last Kaiser - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II - was a narcissistic, blundering man-child. (Not to say that any other nation's leaders were models of wisdom and responsibility.)
- macartain 1y ago
  Where else might we find narcissistic, man-children elevated to dangerous levels of authority?!? (most likely that was your point) I saw a fascinating documentary addressing the fact that the 3 primary leaders of the belligerents in WWI were competitive cousins - amazing that Nicky, George and Little Willi all knew one another as children! And yes, the analysis was that Wilhelm felt excluded and was never very mature - sorry I don't remember the documentary title but there is a summary of the facts here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/cousins_at_war_01.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/cousins_...
meindnoch 1y ago
>I always wondered why WW1 started. For a war to start, you need 3 things: materiel, political support, popular support. In 1914 both the Central Powers and the Entente had all 3 criteria satisfied. The war ended when the Central Powers ran out of popular support for the war.

I always wondered why WW1 started. Maybe they were coked up?

by tim333 1y ago

I always wondered why WW1 started. Maybe they were coked up?

WW1 started (among other things) because the "superpowers" in Europe had been arming each other for quite a while in fear of aggression from the other superpowers (not completely unreasonable, given the wars of the previous century). This, in turn, forced the other superpowers to invest more in armaments and army. To top it off, they made treaties of alliance/military intervention (the Triple Alliance and the Triple Entente). The assassination of the archduke was like flipping a light switch in a house saturated with gas. Austria declares war to Serbia, which is defended by Russia, so Germany has to declare war to Russia; Germany expects France to join Russia so they declare war to France, but their battle plans to conquer France require passing through Belgium. The UK needs Belgium to remain neutral, so they declare war to Germany... and so on. Once the wheels are in motion, and everyone is ready for war, war just happens - whether coke is there or not.

tim333 1y ago
Yeah but if they'd been smoking weed they would have said yeah whatever - I'll have a look at it tomorrow, when Franz Ferdinand got assassinated.
- tonmoy 1y ago
  Something similar happened during WW2 I guess
  - nobody9999 1y ago
    cf. Amphetamine use/distribution in World War II[0][1][2] [0] https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/preview-world-war-speed/4337/ https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/preview-world-war-speed/433... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetamines#Military_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substit... [2] https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1127&context=madrush https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1127...
  - NoobSaibot135 1y ago
    Not sure how accurate this is but there’s a book on how Adolf/Nazi’s were experimenting with hard drugs at that time. https://www.amazon.ca/Blitzed-Norman-Whiteside-Shaun-Ohler/dp/1328663795 https://www.amazon.ca/Blitzed-Norman-Whiteside-Shaun-Ohler/d... They say Hitler was very charismatic, inspiring and a great public speaker. I seriously wonder how much drugs he was on at the time and how much that boosted and projected his own confidence (and then subsequently inspired all of his fellow countrymen Germans)?
- BaseBaal 1y ago
  Even if the ruling class was high off their tits on whatever substance probably had little to do with anything. Most likely the drug that had the most influence was, and still is, the lust for power.
zokier 1y ago
That is the canonical schoolbook explanation of ww1, but I don't like how it frames the war as almost inevitable. Notably the Austro-German alliance was only fully formalized during the July Crisis when Germany offered unconditional support for Austrian war ambitions. While Austria and Germany were part of Triple Alliance, it alone would have not made German entry to war inevitable, as evidenced by Italy (the third member of Triple Alliance). With Germany having major role in both modern drug history (e.g. Merck with morphine and cocaine, Bayer with Heroin) and their decisive role in the beginning of WW1, I think it is legitimate to ask if substance abuse had role in the hawkishness of German leadership. Quick Google indicates that there is no strong evidence for Wilhem II themselves using significant amount of drugs, but less is known about the other high officials and generals.
aznumeric 1y ago
Kinda like today. Europe is rearming in response to perceived risks from Russia. Then the “when you have a hammer…” effect: once capabilities exist, actors start seeing situations where using them seems rational—procurement begets posture, posture begets use-cases.
- meindnoch 1y ago
  What a generous use of the word "perceived".
- Ma8ee 1y ago
  While I can't say I'm completely calm about the situation in Europe, it is very different from the onset of any of the two world wars. Europe is mostly united against the external enemy Russia, and the few countries that aren't 100% on the train is too small to really make any difference.
- gattilorenz 1y ago
  There certainly are similarities. On the other hand, we Europeans have tried to appease Russia for two decades, and it did not make it a less belligerent neighbor.
- CamperBob2 1y ago
  "Perceived"

cjs_ac 1y ago

A man called Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.

darreninthenet 1y ago
Baldrick!

bell-cot 1y ago

One can make an excellent argument that WWI started because Germany's last Kaiser - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II - was a narcissistic, blundering man-child. (Not to say that any other nation's leaders were models of wisdom and responsibility.)

macartain 1y ago
Where else might we find narcissistic, man-children elevated to dangerous levels of authority?!? (most likely that was your point) I saw a fascinating documentary addressing the fact that the 3 primary leaders of the belligerents in WWI were competitive cousins - amazing that Nicky, George and Little Willi all knew one another as children! And yes, the analysis was that Wilhelm felt excluded and was never very mature - sorry I don't remember the documentary title but there is a summary of the facts here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/cousins_at_war_01.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/cousins_...

meindnoch 1y ago

>I always wondered why WW1 started. For a war to start, you need 3 things: materiel, political support, popular support. In 1914 both the Central Powers and the Entente had all 3 criteria satisfied. The war ended when the Central Powers ran out of popular support for the war.