4 ms·

Your expenses are probably much higher though. Generally people adjust by downgrading their standard of living. It's not unusual to be making $100K+ in SF and h

by neilk 14y ago

Your expenses are probably much higher though. Generally people adjust by downgrading their standard of living. It's not unusual to be making $100K+ in SF and have a roommate. I can't imagine what it's like in NYC.

potatolicious 14y ago
Conceptually true, in reality not so much. The additional expense of living in SF/NYC does not at all cancel out the additional pay. I've done this calculation many times - no matter which way you slice it, you earn substantially more in real terms in the US. Just doing some quick napkin math now - to maintain my existing NYC lifestyle in Toronto (and my current savings rate) I'd need to be in the $100-110K range. Who's heard of a guy 3 years out of undergrad making $110K in Toronto?!
- bearmf 14y ago
  110k 3 years out of college is very rare in NYC as well. EDIT: It is certainly not unheard of, but only for top graduates. Also, I see you were talking about equivalent 110k salary in Toronto which would be 130-140k in New York. This is a high base salary by any standard.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes. $110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major investment banks, the institutional tech companies (see: Google), and the startups in NYC, this is the going rate for a mid-level engineer (i.e., $100-140K base). Hell, I have trouble finding fresh undergrads starting below $90K in these areas. The point is, someone who is skilled at programming right now and has a few years of experience under their belt can very well pull at least $120K base, and even adjusting for cost of living differences, that's a hell of a lot more money than you can get in Canada. In any case, this somewhat distracts from the point - it's not just about money. Myself and many other Canadian expats do not feel we can go back to Canada without working for the likes of SAP, IBM, TD, Royal, or any of the vast number of institutional enterprise companies that pound out rote, uninteresting code. There are some companies in Canada doing interesting work, but they are few and far between, demand for these jobs is intense, and job security sucks (after all, what incentive is there to treat you well when the employer knows they're the only interesting game in town?). Compare with the SF/SV/NYC/SEA, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a row of innovative, interesting tech companies doing interesting things. We are hacking on interesting, immensely impactful things here, and we enjoy tremendous respect and security - after all, if management starts screwing around you hop down the street and go do something else that's interesting. The Canadian landscape looks incredibly bleak in comparison - a small handful of elite shops that everyone's clamoring to work for, and a vast tundra of code sweatshops where the problems are as uninteresting as the salary.
    - parasubvert 14y ago
      My view is that "institutional" companies are starting to do innovative things with modern technology (NoSQL, Cloud, Mobility, etc.), but it requires younger people to seek out the opportunity to change these companies from within. There's a big wave of IT retirement coming over the next 5 to 7 years as the old guard dies out and the open source generation comes of age. Given the absolutely astronomical amounts of money these companies are used to paying for the equivalent of "three programmers , 2 weeks, and a case of beer" work, there's a lot of money to be made. The challenge of course is politics, but that exists everywhere - Google has its own flavor (good luck using anything but Python, C, or Java, for example). Startups certainly have less politics, but just tend to be intensely personal affairs that revolve tremendously around the founder's personality and value system. Plus they tend to require commitments above and beyond what people that want families are able to provide. Large companies provide a much higher probability that you can have huge impact on people's day to day lives within a 5 year period, in my opinion - if you land the right project, with good management. No question that people in their 20's should try a startup gig -- I moved to SF and NYC myself at ages 20 and 22, respectively (I dropped out to do it), and don't regret it. I even made a run back to SF at age 30 to try a startup again, this time as an executive (it failed). But I'm making more money now in IT because startups taught me how to get things done, which is an insight in very short supply in most large companies. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many high-end SAP technical jobs that were "rote"... soul-sucking, sure, as you're working for the man, but still requiring a lot of brain power. I refuse to do it because I find more pleasure in torturing SAP consultants than joining them.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - jensv 14y ago
      So how exactly would you recommend going about finding a programming job in the U.S? Are there any resources you found particularly useful given that I have no connections, little knowledge of the job market, and respectable (but no niche or outstanding side projects, mediocore GPA, etc.) skills that would render me invisible in the eyes of "top" employers like Google? I've heard so much about how the grass is greener on the other side but it is not so easy for some of us to join in on the action. I have a bachelors in CS and two years of Canadian experience under the belt. For example I've found indeed.ca to be very useful for locating job openings in most Canadian cities and http://www.grasmick.com/ http://www.grasmick.com/ was recommended to me by some expats.
- parasubvert 14y ago
  It's not that uncommon to pull $100k+ if you're solid with co-op background. 5 years out of undergrad I was in the $145k base range (more with bonus). The real trick in Canada (especially smaller markets like Calgary) is to be an independent contractor... talented guys pull in $95-110 per hour (minus 10-15% if you need a broker), $150-175 per hour or more if you're in a specialty with big demand. HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth.
  - ced 14y ago
    What kind of company do you work for? Which "broker" do you recommend, if any?
    - parasubvert 14y ago
      I'm independent, with my own company; my current long term client is in transportation. Many brokers (i.e. corporations that handle administrative matters for you as an independent, such as liability or E&O insurance, invoicing & payment, etc.) are regional. The ones I deal with are in Western Canada these days, such as SI Systems, Brightspot, Inti Solutions, or Quadrus.
  - debugging 14y ago
    I agree, contract work is where you can make more money. "HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth." You are referring to full-time work right?
    - parasubvert 14y ago
      Yes, full time work. HR departments rarely get involved with contract rates, they'd have a heart attack after their first SAP project.
mahyarm 14y ago
Meh, Vancouver is significantly more expensive than seattle, and only a bit cheaper than the Bay Area. You can have similar wages in seattle as you would in the bay and pay half for your rent, less in taxes, less in car costs, food & shopping. And you'll still be close to family if you grew up in BC. If you want to live cheap, go live in the east bay. In vancouver, not so much.

by neilk 14y ago

potatolicious 14y ago

Conceptually true, in reality not so much. The additional expense of living in SF/NYC does not at all cancel out the additional pay. I've done this calculation many times - no matter which way you slice it, you earn substantially more in real terms in the US. Just doing some quick napkin math now - to maintain my existing NYC lifestyle in Toronto (and my current savings rate) I'd need to be in the $100-110K range. Who's heard of a guy 3 years out of undergrad making $110K in Toronto?!

bearmf 14y ago
110k 3 years out of college is very rare in NYC as well. EDIT: It is certainly not unheard of, but only for top graduates. Also, I see you were talking about equivalent 110k salary in Toronto which would be 130-140k in New York. This is a high base salary by any standard.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes. $110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major investment banks, the institutional tech companies (see: Google), and the startups in NYC, this is the going rate for a mid-level engineer (i.e., $100-140K base). Hell, I have trouble finding fresh undergrads starting below $90K in these areas. The point is, someone who is skilled at programming right now and has a few years of experience under their belt can very well pull at least $120K base, and even adjusting for cost of living differences, that's a hell of a lot more money than you can get in Canada. In any case, this somewhat distracts from the point - it's not just about money. Myself and many other Canadian expats do not feel we can go back to Canada without working for the likes of SAP, IBM, TD, Royal, or any of the vast number of institutional enterprise companies that pound out rote, uninteresting code. There are some companies in Canada doing interesting work, but they are few and far between, demand for these jobs is intense, and job security sucks (after all, what incentive is there to treat you well when the employer knows they're the only interesting game in town?). Compare with the SF/SV/NYC/SEA, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a row of innovative, interesting tech companies doing interesting things. We are hacking on interesting, immensely impactful things here, and we enjoy tremendous respect and security - after all, if management starts screwing around you hop down the street and go do something else that's interesting. The Canadian landscape looks incredibly bleak in comparison - a small handful of elite shops that everyone's clamoring to work for, and a vast tundra of code sweatshops where the problems are as uninteresting as the salary.
  - parasubvert 14y ago
    My view is that "institutional" companies are starting to do innovative things with modern technology (NoSQL, Cloud, Mobility, etc.), but it requires younger people to seek out the opportunity to change these companies from within. There's a big wave of IT retirement coming over the next 5 to 7 years as the old guard dies out and the open source generation comes of age. Given the absolutely astronomical amounts of money these companies are used to paying for the equivalent of "three programmers , 2 weeks, and a case of beer" work, there's a lot of money to be made. The challenge of course is politics, but that exists everywhere - Google has its own flavor (good luck using anything but Python, C, or Java, for example). Startups certainly have less politics, but just tend to be intensely personal affairs that revolve tremendously around the founder's personality and value system. Plus they tend to require commitments above and beyond what people that want families are able to provide. Large companies provide a much higher probability that you can have huge impact on people's day to day lives within a 5 year period, in my opinion - if you land the right project, with good management. No question that people in their 20's should try a startup gig -- I moved to SF and NYC myself at ages 20 and 22, respectively (I dropped out to do it), and don't regret it. I even made a run back to SF at age 30 to try a startup again, this time as an executive (it failed). But I'm making more money now in IT because startups taught me how to get things done, which is an insight in very short supply in most large companies. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many high-end SAP technical jobs that were "rote"... soul-sucking, sure, as you're working for the man, but still requiring a lot of brain power. I refuse to do it because I find more pleasure in torturing SAP consultants than joining them.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - jensv 14y ago
    So how exactly would you recommend going about finding a programming job in the U.S? Are there any resources you found particularly useful given that I have no connections, little knowledge of the job market, and respectable (but no niche or outstanding side projects, mediocore GPA, etc.) skills that would render me invisible in the eyes of "top" employers like Google? I've heard so much about how the grass is greener on the other side but it is not so easy for some of us to join in on the action. I have a bachelors in CS and two years of Canadian experience under the belt. For example I've found indeed.ca to be very useful for locating job openings in most Canadian cities and http://www.grasmick.com/ http://www.grasmick.com/ was recommended to me by some expats.
parasubvert 14y ago
It's not that uncommon to pull $100k+ if you're solid with co-op background. 5 years out of undergrad I was in the $145k base range (more with bonus). The real trick in Canada (especially smaller markets like Calgary) is to be an independent contractor... talented guys pull in $95-110 per hour (minus 10-15% if you need a broker), $150-175 per hour or more if you're in a specialty with big demand. HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth.
- ced 14y ago
  What kind of company do you work for? Which "broker" do you recommend, if any?
  - parasubvert 14y ago
    I'm independent, with my own company; my current long term client is in transportation. Many brokers (i.e. corporations that handle administrative matters for you as an independent, such as liability or E&O insurance, invoicing & payment, etc.) are regional. The ones I deal with are in Western Canada these days, such as SI Systems, Brightspot, Inti Solutions, or Quadrus.
- debugging 14y ago
  I agree, contract work is where you can make more money. "HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth." You are referring to full-time work right?
  - parasubvert 14y ago
    Yes, full time work. HR departments rarely get involved with contract rates, they'd have a heart attack after their first SAP project.

mahyarm 14y ago

Meh, Vancouver is significantly more expensive than seattle, and only a bit cheaper than the Bay Area. You can have similar wages in seattle as you would in the bay and pay half for your rent, less in taxes, less in car costs, food & shopping. And you'll still be close to family if you grew up in BC. If you want to live cheap, go live in the east bay. In vancouver, not so much.