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Courts have previously held that heuristics based determinations are not sufficient to serve as probable cause. E.g. "predictive policing" technologies can be u

Courts have previously held that heuristics based determinations are not sufficient to serve as probable cause. E.g. "predictive policing" technologies can be used for e.g. scheduling officers to different areas, but aren't valid to conduct a search. If this feature is used to make an arrest, there's a good chance the case would be thrown out.

ringeryless 1y ago
I'm not sure such cases would be thrown out. See "parallel construction" for examples of illegally obtained data the DEA was advised to build an evidence chain NOT based on the illegally obtained info, but based upon evidence gleaned after the fact but built to show discovery during the course of investigation.
garbagewoman 1y ago
Why would the police even inform you that flock was used?
- dqv 1y ago
  Why? Because the prosecutor doesn't want all their work to go to waste because they didn't disclose Brady evidence. Even if they successfully argue that Officer Flock's reporting isn't exculpatory, they still have to do extra work to respond to a Brady motion for a case that already got a conviction.
  - mapt 1y ago
    In cases of parallel construction of evidence, is the prosecution still obligated to disclose everything to the defense in discovery? Is the tree from which the Fruit is picked only obscured from the jury, or from the defense as well?
    - dqv 1y ago
      Any evidence the prosecutor uses that is potentially exculpatory must be disclosed to the defendant. So your questions raise why they wouldn't: they think the defense can't find out. And it's arguably likely that they won't. But if they do, it will not only invalidate that single case, it could potentially trigger retrials of hundreds of cases because now a bunch of people know that Officer Flock is on the Brady list. And one final thing about this... the prosecutor (who has probably said some variation of "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" to try to get a conviction) can't claim ignorance as a defense to a Brady violation. Failing to disclose, whether they knew or not, is a Brady violation.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    Hah, as an ex-Flock employee, their transparency report is utter garbage. "Agencies using Flock." In my immediate vicinity, three County Sheriffs use it, but they are not listed. Several city PDs in my county also use it, but they are not listed.
- delfinom 1y ago
  Discovery applies even in cases where the state is prosecuting you.
genocidicbunny 1y ago
The case can be thrown out, but it's still going to cause you massive disruptions. Everything from just being arrested in the first place and being held in custody for some amount of time, to having to hire a lawyer, to the social consequences of your name being tied to being arrested. It's going to cost you time, money, stress, family and social relationships. And there's a non-zero chance that if your life starts being investigated after such an arrest, something could be found to still affect you or your family and friends. And once you're on their radar, you're probably going to also end up being marked for extra scrutiny. You might find yourself being pulled over more often, or getting the SSSS on your airplane boarding pass.
- beng-nl 1y ago
  “You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride.”
- beefnugs 1y ago
  or you know, more false bullshit leads to way more people talking about it, and less stigma about it
ttemPumpinRary 1y ago
But flock now has an Api for to Cause, the parallel construction AI. /s So if they flock to the cause, all arrests are go. And there are always fallback crimes everyone in a modern society commits, that can be dragged in after a search .
pjc50 1y ago
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/emiliano-s-agents-left-behind-trail-of-destruction-16-people-detained-by-ice/ar-AA1K6iVw https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/emiliano-s-agents-left-beh... ICE are to a large extent above the law. Their entire purpose is to snatch people and move them to locations where they can be denied legal redress. A couple of high profile cases have only got redress due to very dedicated intervention by congresspeople, which does not scale. I think people need to start reckoning with the underlying problem, which is that oppressive policing in America is popular provided it's happening to someone else.
- netsharc 1y ago
  Geez, East Germany's State Security, but with supremely better surveillance tech, and AI. Curious how "Homeland Security" and "State Security" are equivalent names. Looking forward to a "Report suspicious neighbors"-program next. Your neighbor made fun of Trump? Report this unamerican activity to Kristi Noem!
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    Minnesota implemented this during COVID… https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/coronavirus-in-minnesota-where-to-call-if-you-see-people-arent-social-distancing/ https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/coronavirus-in-minnes... I’m sure there are also ways to anonymously report illegal immigrants to ICE as well. People are still free to criticize Trump all they want. The First Amendment is pretty clear on this.
    - freilanzer 1y ago
      > People are still free to criticize Trump all they want. The First Amendment is pretty clear on this. In theory.
      - _mlbt 1y ago
        No, in actuality. People criticize Trump daily without fear of repercussions. He's not a king or a dictator. Much of his agenda is being put in check by the other two branches of government.
username332211 1y ago
Who says the feature will be used to make an arrest? The heuristics are clearly about who to pull over, etc. Evidence for arrest/search will be determined afterwards. And, as far as search is concerned, it could be as simple as getting a dog to bark.
potato3732842 1y ago
If this feature is used to make an arrest, there's a good chance the case would be thrown out. They'll just parallel construct the crap out of it and get their arrest anyway.

ringeryless 1y ago

I'm not sure such cases would be thrown out. See "parallel construction" for examples of illegally obtained data the DEA was advised to build an evidence chain NOT based on the illegally obtained info, but based upon evidence gleaned after the fact but built to show discovery during the course of investigation.

garbagewoman 1y ago

Why would the police even inform you that flock was used?

dqv 1y ago
Why? Because the prosecutor doesn't want all their work to go to waste because they didn't disclose Brady evidence. Even if they successfully argue that Officer Flock's reporting isn't exculpatory, they still have to do extra work to respond to a Brady motion for a case that already got a conviction.
- mapt 1y ago
  In cases of parallel construction of evidence, is the prosecution still obligated to disclose everything to the defense in discovery? Is the tree from which the Fruit is picked only obscured from the jury, or from the defense as well?
  - dqv 1y ago
    Any evidence the prosecutor uses that is potentially exculpatory must be disclosed to the defendant. So your questions raise why they wouldn't: they think the defense can't find out. And it's arguably likely that they won't. But if they do, it will not only invalidate that single case, it could potentially trigger retrials of hundreds of cases because now a bunch of people know that Officer Flock is on the Brady list. And one final thing about this... the prosecutor (who has probably said some variation of "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" to try to get a conviction) can't claim ignorance as a defense to a Brady violation. Failing to disclose, whether they knew or not, is a Brady violation.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  Hah, as an ex-Flock employee, their transparency report is utter garbage. "Agencies using Flock." In my immediate vicinity, three County Sheriffs use it, but they are not listed. Several city PDs in my county also use it, but they are not listed.
delfinom 1y ago
Discovery applies even in cases where the state is prosecuting you.

genocidicbunny 1y ago

The case can be thrown out, but it's still going to cause you massive disruptions. Everything from just being arrested in the first place and being held in custody for some amount of time, to having to hire a lawyer, to the social consequences of your name being tied to being arrested. It's going to cost you time, money, stress, family and social relationships. And there's a non-zero chance that if your life starts being investigated after such an arrest, something could be found to still affect you or your family and friends. And once you're on their radar, you're probably going to also end up being marked for extra scrutiny. You might find yourself being pulled over more often, or getting the SSSS on your airplane boarding pass.

beng-nl 1y ago
“You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride.”
beefnugs 1y ago
or you know, more false bullshit leads to way more people talking about it, and less stigma about it

ttemPumpinRary 1y ago

But flock now has an Api for to Cause, the parallel construction AI. /s So if they flock to the cause, all arrests are go. And there are always fallback crimes everyone in a modern society commits, that can be dragged in after a search .

pjc50 1y ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/emiliano-s-agents-left-behind-trail-of-destruction-16-people-detained-by-ice/ar-AA1K6iVw https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/emiliano-s-agents-left-beh... ICE are to a large extent above the law. Their entire purpose is to snatch people and move them to locations where they can be denied legal redress. A couple of high profile cases have only got redress due to very dedicated intervention by congresspeople, which does not scale. I think people need to start reckoning with the underlying problem, which is that oppressive policing in America is popular provided it's happening to someone else.

netsharc 1y ago
Geez, East Germany's State Security, but with supremely better surveillance tech, and AI. Curious how "Homeland Security" and "State Security" are equivalent names. Looking forward to a "Report suspicious neighbors"-program next. Your neighbor made fun of Trump? Report this unamerican activity to Kristi Noem!
- _mlbt 1y ago
  Minnesota implemented this during COVID… https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/coronavirus-in-minnesota-where-to-call-if-you-see-people-arent-social-distancing/ https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/coronavirus-in-minnes... I’m sure there are also ways to anonymously report illegal immigrants to ICE as well. People are still free to criticize Trump all they want. The First Amendment is pretty clear on this.
  - freilanzer 1y ago
    > People are still free to criticize Trump all they want. The First Amendment is pretty clear on this. In theory.
    - _mlbt 1y ago
      No, in actuality. People criticize Trump daily without fear of repercussions. He's not a king or a dictator. Much of his agenda is being put in check by the other two branches of government.

username332211 1y ago

Who says the feature will be used to make an arrest? The heuristics are clearly about who to pull over, etc. Evidence for arrest/search will be determined afterwards. And, as far as search is concerned, it could be as simple as getting a dog to bark.

potato3732842 1y ago

If this feature is used to make an arrest, there's a good chance the case would be thrown out. They'll just parallel construct the crap out of it and get their arrest anyway.