5 ms·

1. Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money. Also living in downtown with no car as opposed to driving everywhere in Bay area and paying crazy

by tlear 14y ago

1. Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money. Also living in downtown with no car as opposed to driving everywhere in Bay area and paying crazy rent. It is not that clear cut imo. NYC is a better comparison probably 2. Not sure on this not enough experience 3. It is trivial to get a visa for Canada to work, compared to US there is no comparison. Note that for Canadian citizens it is different in US (much easier) 4. Yeah thats true, Toronto probably has the biggest community and it is small in comparison 5. So true, the whole thing is a scam. I actually worked on couple projects where these consultants were used. It is embarrassing.

pooriaazimi 14y ago
re. 1: Your parent looks like a legit "throw away", but he's actually not! :)
potatolicious 14y ago
> "Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money." Just from my own circles - $125-150K base, with additional equity/bonuses on top, in NYC, for a bunch of nerds only 1-3 years out of undergrad. The range is similar in SF/SV. This is astronomical by "pretty decent" Toronto standards. IMO the notion that NYC/SF/SV compensation eats Canadian salaries for lunch is not really that controversial nor ambiguous. I am easily earning over 2x what I would pull off in Toronto, or Montreal, or Vancouver. [edit] There's an additional point of on top of this: Canada has essentially no major innovative software institutions. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, et al act as anchors in their respective communities and their influence can't be discounted. They attract talented people who actually give a hoot about the impact of the things they work on, and provide a talent pool for startups to draw from. They also act as a cushion against the risks of startup-dom, as most capable engineers have a (very decent) plan B. The equation in the US often works out like "I can go work on a nimble team doing really cool stuff that impacts real people and possibly get rich. Even if we fail, I walk back into a 6-figure job working on really cool stuff still." - this has a tremendous impact on the startup scene, and simply does not exist at all in Canada.
- neilk 14y ago
  Your expenses are probably much higher though. Generally people adjust by downgrading their standard of living. It's not unusual to be making $100K+ in SF and have a roommate. I can't imagine what it's like in NYC.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    Conceptually true, in reality not so much. The additional expense of living in SF/NYC does not at all cancel out the additional pay. I've done this calculation many times - no matter which way you slice it, you earn substantially more in real terms in the US. Just doing some quick napkin math now - to maintain my existing NYC lifestyle in Toronto (and my current savings rate) I'd need to be in the $100-110K range. Who's heard of a guy 3 years out of undergrad making $110K in Toronto?!
    - bearmf 14y ago
      110k 3 years out of college is very rare in NYC as well. EDIT: It is certainly not unheard of, but only for top graduates. Also, I see you were talking about equivalent 110k salary in Toronto which would be 130-140k in New York. This is a high base salary by any standard.
      - potatolicious 14y ago
        I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes. $110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major investment banks, the institutional tech companies (see: Google), and the startups in NYC, this is the going rate for a mid-level engineer (i.e., $100-140K base). Hell, I have trouble finding fresh undergrads starting below $90K in these areas. The point is, someone who is skilled at programming right now and has a few years of experience under their belt can very well pull at least $120K base, and even adjusting for cost of living differences, that's a hell of a lot more money than you can get in Canada. In any case, this somewhat distracts from the point - it's not just about money. Myself and many other Canadian expats do not feel we can go back to Canada without working for the likes of SAP, IBM, TD, Royal, or any of the vast number of institutional enterprise companies that pound out rote, uninteresting code. There are some companies in Canada doing interesting work, but they are few and far between, demand for these jobs is intense, and job security sucks (after all, what incentive is there to treat you well when the employer knows they're the only interesting game in town?). Compare with the SF/SV/NYC/SEA, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a row of innovative, interesting tech companies doing interesting things. We are hacking on interesting, immensely impactful things here, and we enjoy tremendous respect and security - after all, if management starts screwing around you hop down the street and go do something else that's interesting. The Canadian landscape looks incredibly bleak in comparison - a small handful of elite shops that everyone's clamoring to work for, and a vast tundra of code sweatshops where the problems are as uninteresting as the salary.
deskamess 14y ago
#3... it is not trivial to get a work permit in Canada these days. Your employer has to involve themselves in an official recruitment process and show that none of the candidates qualified. This requirement is an almost US green card like requirement. By comparison the H-1B (us work permit) is much easier to get. Getting a work permit is relatively easy if you are in oil related (non office) work, but not if in technology. Perhaps there may be some loopholes for new companies (aka startups), but I am not sure.
- pyre 14y ago
  I thought that NAFTA had clauses for IT workers (of course this only applies to US citizens).

by tlear 14y ago

pooriaazimi 14y ago

re. 1: Your parent looks like a legit "throw away", but he's actually not! :)

potatolicious 14y ago

> "Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money." Just from my own circles - $125-150K base, with additional equity/bonuses on top, in NYC, for a bunch of nerds only 1-3 years out of undergrad. The range is similar in SF/SV. This is astronomical by "pretty decent" Toronto standards. IMO the notion that NYC/SF/SV compensation eats Canadian salaries for lunch is not really that controversial nor ambiguous. I am easily earning over 2x what I would pull off in Toronto, or Montreal, or Vancouver. [edit] There's an additional point of on top of this: Canada has essentially no major innovative software institutions. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, et al act as anchors in their respective communities and their influence can't be discounted. They attract talented people who actually give a hoot about the impact of the things they work on, and provide a talent pool for startups to draw from. They also act as a cushion against the risks of startup-dom, as most capable engineers have a (very decent) plan B. The equation in the US often works out like "I can go work on a nimble team doing really cool stuff that impacts real people and possibly get rich. Even if we fail, I walk back into a 6-figure job working on really cool stuff still." - this has a tremendous impact on the startup scene, and simply does not exist at all in Canada.

neilk 14y ago
Your expenses are probably much higher though. Generally people adjust by downgrading their standard of living. It's not unusual to be making $100K+ in SF and have a roommate. I can't imagine what it's like in NYC.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  Conceptually true, in reality not so much. The additional expense of living in SF/NYC does not at all cancel out the additional pay. I've done this calculation many times - no matter which way you slice it, you earn substantially more in real terms in the US. Just doing some quick napkin math now - to maintain my existing NYC lifestyle in Toronto (and my current savings rate) I'd need to be in the $100-110K range. Who's heard of a guy 3 years out of undergrad making $110K in Toronto?!
  - bearmf 14y ago
    110k 3 years out of college is very rare in NYC as well. EDIT: It is certainly not unheard of, but only for top graduates. Also, I see you were talking about equivalent 110k salary in Toronto which would be 130-140k in New York. This is a high base salary by any standard.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes. $110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major investment banks, the institutional tech companies (see: Google), and the startups in NYC, this is the going rate for a mid-level engineer (i.e., $100-140K base). Hell, I have trouble finding fresh undergrads starting below $90K in these areas. The point is, someone who is skilled at programming right now and has a few years of experience under their belt can very well pull at least $120K base, and even adjusting for cost of living differences, that's a hell of a lot more money than you can get in Canada. In any case, this somewhat distracts from the point - it's not just about money. Myself and many other Canadian expats do not feel we can go back to Canada without working for the likes of SAP, IBM, TD, Royal, or any of the vast number of institutional enterprise companies that pound out rote, uninteresting code. There are some companies in Canada doing interesting work, but they are few and far between, demand for these jobs is intense, and job security sucks (after all, what incentive is there to treat you well when the employer knows they're the only interesting game in town?). Compare with the SF/SV/NYC/SEA, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a row of innovative, interesting tech companies doing interesting things. We are hacking on interesting, immensely impactful things here, and we enjoy tremendous respect and security - after all, if management starts screwing around you hop down the street and go do something else that's interesting. The Canadian landscape looks incredibly bleak in comparison - a small handful of elite shops that everyone's clamoring to work for, and a vast tundra of code sweatshops where the problems are as uninteresting as the salary.

deskamess 14y ago

#3... it is not trivial to get a work permit in Canada these days. Your employer has to involve themselves in an official recruitment process and show that none of the candidates qualified. This requirement is an almost US green card like requirement. By comparison the H-1B (us work permit) is much easier to get. Getting a work permit is relatively easy if you are in oil related (non office) work, but not if in technology. Perhaps there may be some loopholes for new companies (aka startups), but I am not sure.

pyre 14y ago
I thought that NAFTA had clauses for IT workers (of course this only applies to US citizens).