7 ms·

Flock Now Using AI to Report to Police If Our Movement Patterns Are "Suspicious"

118 points by cyberphobe 1y ago

chung8123 1y ago
Are there IR lights you can put on your license plate to block cameras from taking pictures of it?
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  There are passive ways too on AliExpress like IR reflective sprays, coatings and films, but in my country, and I suspect in most of Europe, any intentional tampering with the legibility of your license plate is illegal and can land you hefty fines or even jail if caught.
  - Animats 1y ago
    They also don't help much any more. Not with cameras that do color, infrared, 4K or 8K video, high dynamic range, and vehicle make and model recognition.[1][2] In the first video, note the checkbox in the analysis program for displaying vehicles with "strange plates" which were in range for reading but not read. Trying to obscure a plate draws automated attention. Big Brother has AI, too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qJsvBW05RI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qJsvBW05RI [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U2LWuBFIR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U2LWuBFIR0
    - FireBeyond 1y ago
      Flock will use things like bumper stickers, tow hitches, roof racks, body panel color differences, wheels/rims, and window tints to add to vehicle identification metadata".
- fennecfoxy 1y ago
  Sure, if you're doing a going to prison any% glitchless.
- troyvit 1y ago
  What would happen if you stenciled paintings of license-plate-like patterns all over the back of your car? Then you're not tampering with the plate itself, but I guess you end up with a goofy-lookin' car.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Why do you think tons of fleets have 6-char alphanumeric vehicle IDs? Gotta have some number on the thing for your own ID purposes and if it saves tou a $50 semi truck toll bill 1/500th of the time that's icing on the cake.
ghssds 1y ago
> With our new Multi-State Insights feature, law enforcement is alerted when suspect vehicles have been detected in multiple states So, using our freedom of movement is now suspicious?
- username332211 1y ago
  That's not what the sentence you cite is saying. If they decide you are suspicious, they'll get an email alert about your location.
  - briangriffinfan 1y ago
    It's not someone "deciding," it's a black box algorithm.
rossant 1y ago
Welcome to the future. Minority Report's coming. How terrifying.
- collingreen 1y ago
  We're getting to the point where the thing making Minority report look unreasonable is that they had three (extremely drugged, troubled) humans making decisions as a consensus instead of just using an algorithm or a police officer's vibes. Nobody really doing these things today would slow down enough for that or risk someone having empathy and derailing the whole operation. The last ten years have stuck out as a continuous loop of "this is so messed up it wouldn't be a believable/good movie plot".
Manuel_D 1y ago
Courts have previously held that heuristics based determinations are not sufficient to serve as probable cause. E.g. "predictive policing" technologies can be used for e.g. scheduling officers to different areas, but aren't valid to conduct a search. If this feature is used to make an arrest, there's a good chance the case would be thrown out.
- ringeryless 1y ago
  I'm not sure such cases would be thrown out. See "parallel construction" for examples of illegally obtained data the DEA was advised to build an evidence chain NOT based on the illegally obtained info, but based upon evidence gleaned after the fact but built to show discovery during the course of investigation.
- garbagewoman 1y ago
  Why would the police even inform you that flock was used?
  - dqv 1y ago
    Why? Because the prosecutor doesn't want all their work to go to waste because they didn't disclose Brady evidence. Even if they successfully argue that Officer Flock's reporting isn't exculpatory, they still have to do extra work to respond to a Brady motion for a case that already got a conviction.
    - mapt 1y ago
      In cases of parallel construction of evidence, is the prosecution still obligated to disclose everything to the defense in discovery? Is the tree from which the Fruit is picked only obscured from the jury, or from the defense as well?
      - dqv 1y ago
        Any evidence the prosecutor uses that is potentially exculpatory must be disclosed to the defendant. So your questions raise why they wouldn't: they think the defense can't find out. And it's arguably likely that they won't. But if they do, it will not only invalidate that single case, it could potentially trigger retrials of hundreds of cases because now a bunch of people know that Officer Flock is on the Brady list. And one final thing about this... the prosecutor (who has probably said some variation of "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" to try to get a conviction) can't claim ignorance as a defense to a Brady violation. Failing to disclose, whether they knew or not, is a Brady violation.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
Isn't this what Palantir also does?
blitzar 1y ago
"They 'trust me'. Dumb fucks." - big tech / small tech / startups (every year)
saubeidl 1y ago
Big Tech is building a dystopia and we all here are complicit. Become aware of the consequences of your actions and try to minimize the harm.
- etiennebausson 1y ago
  Certainly not all no, maybe not even most. I do not feel guilty of the unethical actions of others.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    May I ask what you do that you consider yourself not complicit?
- kentm 1y ago
  But, if we don’t build the Torment Nexus then someone else will anyway!
thrown-0825 1y ago
People ITT talking about probable cause like the rule of law still exists in the US
kotaKat 1y ago
Grab a pole saw, cut em down, take a shit ton of free nice Tenergy battery packs and a SIM card with free data. It’s time to snip the flock.
username332211 1y ago
I feel the ship has sailed here. Once the police started to record every interaction with the public, along with their existing habit of placing traffic cameras left and right, they acquired enough data to track people. Trying to restrict the analysis of existing data is never going to work. The police can always point to some death that wouldn't have happened, if they had ran Flock's software on their surveillance footage. And even if by some miracle you manage to forbid plate recognition, cross referencing, etc, every ambitious (or lazy) detective would start doing it on the down low with OSS software.
- Ntrails 1y ago
  > Once the police started to record every interaction with the public I don't think this is true? As far as I can tell any time the recording is mentioned in a complaint at the police behaviour the camera was off due to [battery life|maintenance|other].
  - mapt 1y ago
    I get the feeling that judges & juries are less and less likely to give the benefit of the doubt if charges/lawsuits are ever actually filed against the officer, year by year. You also get just rank intimidation. My friend got out of jail and the next day tried to file a complaint about an officer stealing his pocket money during an arrest. He was placed in a room with the arresting officer, who explained that any complaint which was filed would incur retribution from the DA with regards to the thing that got him arrested. This is happening in a large urbanized precinct, in a blue state. To ever regain control of the police force, the various civilian & political oversight bodies would need to prosecute thousands of felony exortion, kidnapping, and assault cases a year.
  - beefnugs 1y ago
    Actually now that they have all pervasive surveillance, there is real evidence to be used against them in incompetence and allowing crimes to occur. This is not going to go the way they hoped
    - 1y ago
superultra 1y ago
I live in the neighborhood where Flock started. The three Georgia Tech grads moved into a house in the West End in Atlanta. It’s a great neighborhood but like any urban neighborhood, you often deal with car break-in’s, so the roommates built a prototype security cam. All fine so far. Except that the direction it was pointed at was the neighborhood middle school. Which means these three notably white college students started flock by surveilled predominantly black young kids. The neighborhood was pissed - but what are you going to do? Eventually Flock took off and they moved out. My point is that if your product started as surveillance on not just another age demographic but a racial and class demographic, is it any surprise that all of this is fundamentally in the DNA of the company?
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Even if you leave the race baiting out it's still wholly unacceptable. Change the race of the parties up all you want and it doesn't change a thing.
g42gregory 1y ago
And you think OpenAI, Anthropic, and Co. will not do exactly the same, when you engage in a wrongthink? Larry Ellison said it best a few months ago: "AI will keep you on your best behavior"[1]. [1] Meeting with Sam Altman, President Trump, and Masayoshi Son, announcing $500 million infrastructure deal.

118 points by cyberphobe 1y ago

chung8123 1y ago

Are there IR lights you can put on your license plate to block cameras from taking pictures of it?

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
There are passive ways too on AliExpress like IR reflective sprays, coatings and films, but in my country, and I suspect in most of Europe, any intentional tampering with the legibility of your license plate is illegal and can land you hefty fines or even jail if caught.
- Animats 1y ago
  They also don't help much any more. Not with cameras that do color, infrared, 4K or 8K video, high dynamic range, and vehicle make and model recognition.[1][2] In the first video, note the checkbox in the analysis program for displaying vehicles with "strange plates" which were in range for reading but not read. Trying to obscure a plate draws automated attention. Big Brother has AI, too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qJsvBW05RI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qJsvBW05RI [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U2LWuBFIR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U2LWuBFIR0
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    Flock will use things like bumper stickers, tow hitches, roof racks, body panel color differences, wheels/rims, and window tints to add to vehicle identification metadata".
fennecfoxy 1y ago
Sure, if you're doing a going to prison any% glitchless.
troyvit 1y ago
What would happen if you stenciled paintings of license-plate-like patterns all over the back of your car? Then you're not tampering with the plate itself, but I guess you end up with a goofy-lookin' car.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Why do you think tons of fleets have 6-char alphanumeric vehicle IDs? Gotta have some number on the thing for your own ID purposes and if it saves tou a $50 semi truck toll bill 1/500th of the time that's icing on the cake.

ghssds 1y ago

> With our new Multi-State Insights feature, law enforcement is alerted when suspect vehicles have been detected in multiple states So, using our freedom of movement is now suspicious?

username332211 1y ago
That's not what the sentence you cite is saying. If they decide you are suspicious, they'll get an email alert about your location.
- briangriffinfan 1y ago
  It's not someone "deciding," it's a black box algorithm.

rossant 1y ago

Welcome to the future. Minority Report's coming. How terrifying.

collingreen 1y ago
We're getting to the point where the thing making Minority report look unreasonable is that they had three (extremely drugged, troubled) humans making decisions as a consensus instead of just using an algorithm or a police officer's vibes. Nobody really doing these things today would slow down enough for that or risk someone having empathy and derailing the whole operation. The last ten years have stuck out as a continuous loop of "this is so messed up it wouldn't be a believable/good movie plot".

Manuel_D 1y ago

Courts have previously held that heuristics based determinations are not sufficient to serve as probable cause. E.g. "predictive policing" technologies can be used for e.g. scheduling officers to different areas, but aren't valid to conduct a search. If this feature is used to make an arrest, there's a good chance the case would be thrown out.

ringeryless 1y ago
I'm not sure such cases would be thrown out. See "parallel construction" for examples of illegally obtained data the DEA was advised to build an evidence chain NOT based on the illegally obtained info, but based upon evidence gleaned after the fact but built to show discovery during the course of investigation.
garbagewoman 1y ago
Why would the police even inform you that flock was used?
- dqv 1y ago
  Why? Because the prosecutor doesn't want all their work to go to waste because they didn't disclose Brady evidence. Even if they successfully argue that Officer Flock's reporting isn't exculpatory, they still have to do extra work to respond to a Brady motion for a case that already got a conviction.
  - mapt 1y ago
    In cases of parallel construction of evidence, is the prosecution still obligated to disclose everything to the defense in discovery? Is the tree from which the Fruit is picked only obscured from the jury, or from the defense as well?
    - dqv 1y ago
      Any evidence the prosecutor uses that is potentially exculpatory must be disclosed to the defendant. So your questions raise why they wouldn't: they think the defense can't find out. And it's arguably likely that they won't. But if they do, it will not only invalidate that single case, it could potentially trigger retrials of hundreds of cases because now a bunch of people know that Officer Flock is on the Brady list. And one final thing about this... the prosecutor (who has probably said some variation of "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" to try to get a conviction) can't claim ignorance as a defense to a Brady violation. Failing to disclose, whether they knew or not, is a Brady violation.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

Isn't this what Palantir also does?

blitzar 1y ago

"They 'trust me'. Dumb fucks." - big tech / small tech / startups (every year)

saubeidl 1y ago

Big Tech is building a dystopia and we all here are complicit. Become aware of the consequences of your actions and try to minimize the harm.

etiennebausson 1y ago
Certainly not all no, maybe not even most. I do not feel guilty of the unethical actions of others.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  May I ask what you do that you consider yourself not complicit?
kentm 1y ago
But, if we don’t build the Torment Nexus then someone else will anyway!

thrown-0825 1y ago

People ITT talking about probable cause like the rule of law still exists in the US

kotaKat 1y ago

Grab a pole saw, cut em down, take a shit ton of free nice Tenergy battery packs and a SIM card with free data. It’s time to snip the flock.

username332211 1y ago

I feel the ship has sailed here. Once the police started to record every interaction with the public, along with their existing habit of placing traffic cameras left and right, they acquired enough data to track people. Trying to restrict the analysis of existing data is never going to work. The police can always point to some death that wouldn't have happened, if they had ran Flock's software on their surveillance footage. And even if by some miracle you manage to forbid plate recognition, cross referencing, etc, every ambitious (or lazy) detective would start doing it on the down low with OSS software.

Ntrails 1y ago
> Once the police started to record every interaction with the public I don't think this is true? As far as I can tell any time the recording is mentioned in a complaint at the police behaviour the camera was off due to [battery life|maintenance|other].
- mapt 1y ago
  I get the feeling that judges & juries are less and less likely to give the benefit of the doubt if charges/lawsuits are ever actually filed against the officer, year by year. You also get just rank intimidation. My friend got out of jail and the next day tried to file a complaint about an officer stealing his pocket money during an arrest. He was placed in a room with the arresting officer, who explained that any complaint which was filed would incur retribution from the DA with regards to the thing that got him arrested. This is happening in a large urbanized precinct, in a blue state. To ever regain control of the police force, the various civilian & political oversight bodies would need to prosecute thousands of felony exortion, kidnapping, and assault cases a year.
- beefnugs 1y ago
  Actually now that they have all pervasive surveillance, there is real evidence to be used against them in incompetence and allowing crimes to occur. This is not going to go the way they hoped
  - 1y ago

superultra 1y ago

I live in the neighborhood where Flock started. The three Georgia Tech grads moved into a house in the West End in Atlanta. It’s a great neighborhood but like any urban neighborhood, you often deal with car break-in’s, so the roommates built a prototype security cam. All fine so far. Except that the direction it was pointed at was the neighborhood middle school. Which means these three notably white college students started flock by surveilled predominantly black young kids. The neighborhood was pissed - but what are you going to do? Eventually Flock took off and they moved out. My point is that if your product started as surveillance on not just another age demographic but a racial and class demographic, is it any surprise that all of this is fundamentally in the DNA of the company?

potato3732842 1y ago
Even if you leave the race baiting out it's still wholly unacceptable. Change the race of the parties up all you want and it doesn't change a thing.

g42gregory 1y ago

And you think OpenAI, Anthropic, and Co. will not do exactly the same, when you engage in a wrongthink? Larry Ellison said it best a few months ago: "AI will keep you on your best behavior"[1]. [1] Meeting with Sam Altman, President Trump, and Masayoshi Son, announcing $500 million infrastructure deal.