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I was going to downvote you but you are adding to the discussion. In this context this is free from having to spend money. Many of us don't have the option to p

I was going to downvote you but you are adding to the discussion. In this context this is free from having to spend money. Many of us don't have the option to pay for models. We have to find some way to get the state of the art without spending our food money.

frankzander 1y ago
Hm why pay for something when I can get it for free? Being miserly is a skill that can save a lot of money.
- hx8 1y ago
  I live a pretty frugal life, and reached the FI part of FIRE in my early 30s as an averagely compensated software engineer. I am very skeptical anytime something is 'free'. I specifically avoid using a free service when the company profits from my use of the service. These arrangements usually start mutually beneficial, and almost always become user hostile. Why pay for something when you can get it for free? Because the exchange of money for service sets clear boundaries and expectations.
- freeopinion 1y ago
  I built a simple little CRUD app for somebody the other day. They were very appreciative of the free app. So they bought me a pizza. I got a free pizza just for coding a little app. That saved me a lot of money.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Remember: if you're not paying for the product, you ARE the product. If you're fine with compromising your privacy and having others extract wealth from you, you can go the "free" route.
  - frankzander 1y ago
    You are the product no matter how much you pay tbh
ta1243 1y ago
I don't trust any AI company not to use and monetise my data, regardless how much I pay or regardless what their terms of service say. I know full well that large companies ignore laws with impunity and no accountability.
- simonw 1y ago
  I would encourage you to rethink this position just a little bit. Going through life not trusting any company isn't a fun way to live. If it helps, think about those company's own selfish motivations. They like money, so they like paying customers. If they promise those paying customers (in legally binding agreements, no less) that they won't train on their data... and are then found to have trained on their data anyway, they wont just lose that customer - they'll lose thousands of others too. Which hurts their bottom line. It's in their interest not to break those promises.
  - alpaca128 1y ago
    > they wont just lose that customer - they'll lose thousands of others too No, they won't. And that's the problem in your argument. Google landed in court for tracking users in incognito mode. They also were fined for not complying with the rules for cookie popups. Facebook lost in court for illegally using data for advertising. Did it lose them any paying customer? Maybe, but not nearly enough for them to even notice a difference. The larger outcome was that people are now more pissed at the EU for cookie popups that make the greed for data more transparent. Also in the case of Google most money comes from different people than the ones that have their privacy violated, so the incentives are not working as you suggest. > Going through life not trusting any company isn't a fun way to live Ignoring existing problems isn't a recipe for a happy life either.
    - simonw 1y ago
      Landing in court is an expensive thing that companies don't want to happen. Your examples also differ from what I'm talking about. Advertising supported business models have a different relationship with end users. People getting something for free are less likely to switch providers over a privacy concern compared with companies is paying thousands of dollars a month (or more) for a paid service under the understanding that it won't train on their data.
teiferer 1y ago
I appreciate your consideration, disagree != downvote. To your point, "free from having to spend money" is exactly it. It's paid for with other things, and I get that some folks don't care. But being more open about this would be nice. You don't typically hide a monetary cost either, and everybody trying to do that is rightfully called out on it by being called a scam. Doing that with non-monetary costs would be a nice custom.
freeopinion 1y ago
There is a company that is advertising like crazy for programmers, data scientists, etc. They are looking for college kids, etc. They are paying better than McDonalds. What are they building? A training corpus. Are people who responds to their ads getting the money for free? Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing.
- twelve40 1y ago
  > Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing. it's a battle that's already lost a long time ago. Every crappy little service by now indexes everything. If you ever touch Github, Jira, Datadog, Glean (god forbid), Upwork, etc etc they each have their own shitty little "AI" thing which means what? Your project has been indexed, bagged and tagged. So unless you code from a cave without using any saas tools, you will be indexed no matter what.
  - pwndByDeath 1y ago
    I feel like this was understood. SaaS has your data, and the pan is very hot. Two lessons that learn quickly with experience.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
>We have to find some way to get the state of the art without spending our food money. If it's not your job: Do we "have to" find this way? What's the oppotunity cost compared to a premium subscription or using not-state of the art tools? If it is your job: it's putting food on the table. So it should be a relatively microscopic cost to doing business. Maybe even a tax write-off.

frankzander 1y ago

Hm why pay for something when I can get it for free? Being miserly is a skill that can save a lot of money.

hx8 1y ago
I live a pretty frugal life, and reached the FI part of FIRE in my early 30s as an averagely compensated software engineer. I am very skeptical anytime something is 'free'. I specifically avoid using a free service when the company profits from my use of the service. These arrangements usually start mutually beneficial, and almost always become user hostile. Why pay for something when you can get it for free? Because the exchange of money for service sets clear boundaries and expectations.
freeopinion 1y ago
I built a simple little CRUD app for somebody the other day. They were very appreciative of the free app. So they bought me a pizza. I got a free pizza just for coding a little app. That saved me a lot of money.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
Remember: if you're not paying for the product, you ARE the product. If you're fine with compromising your privacy and having others extract wealth from you, you can go the "free" route.
- frankzander 1y ago
  You are the product no matter how much you pay tbh

ta1243 1y ago

I don't trust any AI company not to use and monetise my data, regardless how much I pay or regardless what their terms of service say. I know full well that large companies ignore laws with impunity and no accountability.

simonw 1y ago
I would encourage you to rethink this position just a little bit. Going through life not trusting any company isn't a fun way to live. If it helps, think about those company's own selfish motivations. They like money, so they like paying customers. If they promise those paying customers (in legally binding agreements, no less) that they won't train on their data... and are then found to have trained on their data anyway, they wont just lose that customer - they'll lose thousands of others too. Which hurts their bottom line. It's in their interest not to break those promises.
- alpaca128 1y ago
  > they wont just lose that customer - they'll lose thousands of others too No, they won't. And that's the problem in your argument. Google landed in court for tracking users in incognito mode. They also were fined for not complying with the rules for cookie popups. Facebook lost in court for illegally using data for advertising. Did it lose them any paying customer? Maybe, but not nearly enough for them to even notice a difference. The larger outcome was that people are now more pissed at the EU for cookie popups that make the greed for data more transparent. Also in the case of Google most money comes from different people than the ones that have their privacy violated, so the incentives are not working as you suggest. > Going through life not trusting any company isn't a fun way to live Ignoring existing problems isn't a recipe for a happy life either.
  - simonw 1y ago
    Landing in court is an expensive thing that companies don't want to happen. Your examples also differ from what I'm talking about. Advertising supported business models have a different relationship with end users. People getting something for free are less likely to switch providers over a privacy concern compared with companies is paying thousands of dollars a month (or more) for a paid service under the understanding that it won't train on their data.

teiferer 1y ago

I appreciate your consideration, disagree != downvote. To your point, "free from having to spend money" is exactly it. It's paid for with other things, and I get that some folks don't care. But being more open about this would be nice. You don't typically hide a monetary cost either, and everybody trying to do that is rightfully called out on it by being called a scam. Doing that with non-monetary costs would be a nice custom.

freeopinion 1y ago

There is a company that is advertising like crazy for programmers, data scientists, etc. They are looking for college kids, etc. They are paying better than McDonalds. What are they building? A training corpus. Are people who responds to their ads getting the money for free? Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing.

twelve40 1y ago
> Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing. it's a battle that's already lost a long time ago. Every crappy little service by now indexes everything. If you ever touch Github, Jira, Datadog, Glean (god forbid), Upwork, etc etc they each have their own shitty little "AI" thing which means what? Your project has been indexed, bagged and tagged. So unless you code from a cave without using any saas tools, you will be indexed no matter what.
- pwndByDeath 1y ago
  I feel like this was understood. SaaS has your data, and the pan is very hot. Two lessons that learn quickly with experience.

johnnyanmac 1y ago

>We have to find some way to get the state of the art without spending our food money. If it's not your job: Do we "have to" find this way? What's the oppotunity cost compared to a premium subscription or using not-state of the art tools? If it is your job: it's putting food on the table. So it should be a relatively microscopic cost to doing business. Maybe even a tax write-off.