4 ms·

> It’s a subscription product, but it has an insanely generous free tier that covers basically anything you’d ever want to do as an individual. Tailscale do ha

by Lammy 1y ago

> It’s a subscription product, but it has an insanely generous free tier that covers basically anything you’d ever want to do as an individual. Tailscale do have a very nice product, but privacy-conscious users should be aware that you must disable Tailscale's real-time remote collection of your behavior on your “private” network. See KB1011: https://tailscale.com/kb/1011/log-mesh-traffic https://tailscale.com/kb/1011/log-mesh-traffic “Each Tailscale agent in your distributed network streams its logs to a central log server (at log.tailscale.io). This includes real-time events for open and close events for every inter-machine connection (TCP or UDP) on your network.” It's possible to opt out of this spying on Unix/Windows/Mac clients by starting Tailscale with `--no-logs-no-support` or `TS_NO_LOGS_NO_SUPPORT=true` environment variable (see https://tailscale.com/kb/1011/log-mesh-traffic#opting-out-of-client-logging https://tailscale.com/kb/1011/log-mesh-traffic#opting-out-of...), but it is not currently possible to opt out in the Android/iOS clients: https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/13174 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/13174 For an example of how invasive this is for the average user, this person discovered Tailscale trying to collect ~18000 data points per week about their network usage based on the number of blocked DNS requests for `log.tailscale.com`: https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/15326 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/15326 Also see their privacy policy: https://tailscale.com/privacy-policy#information-we-collect-through-automated-means https://tailscale.com/privacy-policy#information-we-collect-... “When you use the Tailscale Solution, we collect limited metadata regarding your device used to access the Tailscale Solution, such as: the device name; relevant operating system type; host name; IP address; cryptographic public key; user agent (where applicable); language settings; date and time of access to the Tailscale Solution; logs describing connections and containing statistics about data sent to and from other devices (“Inter-Node Traffic Logs”); and version of the Tailscale Solution installed.” (emphasis mine) Anyway, the reason I quoted that part of your post is because Tailscale are using some Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt tactics here by naming the privacy-preserving option “no-support”, and if you are a free user then you aren't getting support from them anyway, so there should be no downside to keeping your private network private :)

mcsniff 1y ago
This comment should really be much higher.
xyzzy_plugh 1y ago
That section of the policy simply describes how the system works. It's very valuable information for enterprise customers who are effectively their entire market revenue-wise. Think access logs, intrusion detection, and so on. I do not interpret their policies such that they are processing the information you added emphasis to beyond what is necessary to serve the customer. What evidence do you have to the contrary? The irony of your post, which brings up Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, is certainly not lost on me. I'm also sure you could just ask apenwarr directly for clarification.
- Lammy 1y ago
  > I do not interpret their policies such that they are processing the information you added emphasis to beyond what is necessary to serve the customer. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Respectfully, you are failing to appreciate the full scope of the problem. It doesn't matter what Tailscale do with the data. The log contents don't matter at all, only the fact that a network connection was made. Every network connection you make creates metadata about you, and the Internet itself — the path between me and Tailscale's logging endpoint — is always listening. Think what conclusions can be drawn about a person's behavior from a log of their network connections. Encryption doesn't matter, because we're just talking about metadata; each connection's timestamp, source, destination, and port. Think about the way each additional thing-which-makes-network-requests increases the surveillance value of all the others. Straight away, many people's NTP client tells the network what OS they use: `time.windows.com`? Probably a Windows user. `time.apple.com`? Probably Mac or iOS. `time.google.com`? You get the idea. Yeah, anyone can configure an NTP client to use any of those hosts, but the vast vast majority of people are taking the default and probably don't even know what NTP is. Add a metadata point: somebody makes a connection to one of the well-known Wi-Fi captive portal detection hosts around 4PM on a weekday? Maybe somebody just got home from school. Captive portal detection at 6PM on a weekday? Maybe somebody just got home from work. Your machines are all doing this any time they reconnect to a saved Wi-Fi network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal#Detection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal#Detection Add a metadata point: somebody makes a network connection to their OS's default weather-widget API right after the captive-portal test, and then another weather-API connection exactly $(DEFAULT_INTERVAL} minutes later? That person who got home is probably still home. Anyway, you get the point that this stuff adds up! The problem with Tailscale is that its default behavior exposes metadata about entire additional classes of traffic in addition to all the examples I just mentioned that my devices were already leaking. Tailscale would have me start telling the Internet “hey I'm here and doin' stuff!” every time I read or write any file on my NAS, every time I use Steam Link remote play over LAN, every time I SSH or RDP into any of my other machines. The free “Personal” tier is limited to only 3 users but 100 devices, so it's normal and expected to set it up the client on any and every computer you own: https://tailscale.com/kb/1154/free-plans-discounts#personal-plan https://tailscale.com/kb/1154/free-plans-discounts#personal-... My behavior would be exposed to every layer of service provider along the way: my ISP, my ISP's ISPs, the cloud provider Tailscale use to host their surveillance endpoint, Tailscale themselves if they so choose, whatever creepy secret spy implants we're not allowed to know about. No thanks! If you want to be private, you must be silent.

by Lammy 1y ago

mcsniff 1y ago

This comment should really be much higher.

xyzzy_plugh 1y ago

That section of the policy simply describes how the system works. It's very valuable information for enterprise customers who are effectively their entire market revenue-wise. Think access logs, intrusion detection, and so on. I do not interpret their policies such that they are processing the information you added emphasis to beyond what is necessary to serve the customer. What evidence do you have to the contrary? The irony of your post, which brings up Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, is certainly not lost on me. I'm also sure you could just ask apenwarr directly for clarification.

Lammy 1y ago
> I do not interpret their policies such that they are processing the information you added emphasis to beyond what is necessary to serve the customer. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Respectfully, you are failing to appreciate the full scope of the problem. It doesn't matter what Tailscale do with the data. The log contents don't matter at all, only the fact that a network connection was made. Every network connection you make creates metadata about you, and the Internet itself — the path between me and Tailscale's logging endpoint — is always listening. Think what conclusions can be drawn about a person's behavior from a log of their network connections. Encryption doesn't matter, because we're just talking about metadata; each connection's timestamp, source, destination, and port. Think about the way each additional thing-which-makes-network-requests increases the surveillance value of all the others. Straight away, many people's NTP client tells the network what OS they use: `time.windows.com`? Probably a Windows user. `time.apple.com`? Probably Mac or iOS. `time.google.com`? You get the idea. Yeah, anyone can configure an NTP client to use any of those hosts, but the vast vast majority of people are taking the default and probably don't even know what NTP is. Add a metadata point: somebody makes a connection to one of the well-known Wi-Fi captive portal detection hosts around 4PM on a weekday? Maybe somebody just got home from school. Captive portal detection at 6PM on a weekday? Maybe somebody just got home from work. Your machines are all doing this any time they reconnect to a saved Wi-Fi network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal#Detection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal#Detection Add a metadata point: somebody makes a network connection to their OS's default weather-widget API right after the captive-portal test, and then another weather-API connection exactly $(DEFAULT_INTERVAL} minutes later? That person who got home is probably still home. Anyway, you get the point that this stuff adds up! The problem with Tailscale is that its default behavior exposes metadata about entire additional classes of traffic in addition to all the examples I just mentioned that my devices were already leaking. Tailscale would have me start telling the Internet “hey I'm here and doin' stuff!” every time I read or write any file on my NAS, every time I use Steam Link remote play over LAN, every time I SSH or RDP into any of my other machines. The free “Personal” tier is limited to only 3 users but 100 devices, so it's normal and expected to set it up the client on any and every computer you own: https://tailscale.com/kb/1154/free-plans-discounts#personal-plan https://tailscale.com/kb/1154/free-plans-discounts#personal-... My behavior would be exposed to every layer of service provider along the way: my ISP, my ISP's ISPs, the cloud provider Tailscale use to host their surveillance endpoint, Tailscale themselves if they so choose, whatever creepy secret spy implants we're not allowed to know about. No thanks! If you want to be private, you must be silent.