7 ms·

The world is split I assume between the "new wave" which prefer vim, textmate over eclipse / aptana / vstudio, prefer linux/Mac over windows, prefer dynamic and

The world is split I assume between the "new wave" which prefer vim, textmate over eclipse / aptana / vstudio, prefer linux/Mac over windows, prefer dynamic and functional over static and object oriented, prefer git over svn, and prefer fun startups over gray enterprises, and I can't blame them. However, as much as it may surprise, most developers of this world, as much as they would like to work in a startup, work in a gray, corporate enterprise, write Java, Spring and Hibernate, or .NET, and have no clue about anything beyond that. Scala does a wonderful thing, it allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python but stay in static Java land. which is great news for everyone. There are many Enterprise developers who are amazing developers and architects, and can benefit any startup, the more they get close to newer "trends" the more likely the connection will happen. Young startups will benefit, 40+ enterprise Java architects will benefit, and perhaps the talent wars will have a cease fire. I'm pushing everyone I know to take a look at Scala, it's here to stay, and if you take a look at play framework, it's looking even more like the next big thing. It all comes down to the community, if the ruby / rails community will be scala / play friendly, and endorse it as a "ok it's Java but we hate it less", it will help it take off. As an enterprise developer, I really need something like scala / play to take off, as I won't be able to get ruby on rails / django in the same way I could get play / lift. as much as I think they are great frameworks, it's hard to sell to the enterprise crowd.

CJefferson 14y ago
This is probably sounds insulting, but I just wanted to give you a warning. I spent some time deciding if your first sentence was a parody (Look at us new vim mac users with functional languages and git and startups). Very sorry that I am a C++ programmer, working in visual studio, as opposed to writing the latest to-do app in scala using vim.
- eranation 14y ago
  I'm using eclipse, and I can't leave my IDE, but I admire people who managed to free themselves from being dependent on an IDE, autocomplete / content assist. I tried VIM / Emacs / TextMate, didn't work for me, but perhaps I'm too old for new tricks, and already hooked to eclipse's shortcuts (ctrl+1 has no equivalent, I hardly need to write code, it's 50% shortcuts) I did like SublimeText 2, and use it for sass / scss / CoffeeScript and node development. No parody was intended, I have all respect to all developers where ever they are and what ever IDE / non-IDE they chose to work with.
  - bearritto 14y ago
    Half the people pushing Scala tout Scala's tooling ecosystem. I use IntelliJ IDEA with the Scala plugin and you get code-complete and type aware tooling. In fact every developer I know that writes production Scala code uses an IDE. I have fuckall of a clue what an IDE has to do with Scala except for some sort of lifestyle statement.
mgkimsal 14y ago
"Scala does a wonderful thing, it allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python but stay in static Java land. which is great news for everyone." Groovy does the same thing with less friction and switching overhead.
- cfontes 14y ago
  Nanana... I know both, and Scala and Groovy are complety different tools Groovy is great to Websites and fast development they remove the code complexity and verbosity of java using type inference, some functional goodies like closures and add DSL capabilities,I use it everyday and it's a very nice tool. Scala is another kind of tool, it also does type inference and add functional goodies and support DSL BUT it have a deep love to parallelism (actors and non mutable objects as an example) and is way closer to the functional paradigm than Groovy, but it's more complex. So you gotta choose wisely so you don't end up with the hammer to a screw kind of problem. My view: Groovy is for fast development and WEB stuff mainly because of Grails which is an awesome tool as well. Scala is more a backend tool when you need Horse Power, but that's because the lang is more complex, I don't like Play and Lift is not as easy to understand as Grails. Again no Flamewars please.
  - mgkimsal 14y ago
    Wasn't trying to start a flamewar. Yes, they're completely different tools. Per the original quote though "it (scala) allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python" Groovy fits that bill far better than Scala if you're primarily looking for a taste, without having to adopt the complexity of a new worldview.
    - cfontes 14y ago
      I am sorry I said no flamewars because of what I was saying, to point that I didn't want to start one. Your answer was not the flamewars kind at all. And yes Groovy fits perfectly in that statement.
  - chaostheory 14y ago
rpearl 14y ago
"dynamic and functional" I don't understand what you've said here. The two terms are entirely orthogonal. There are functional langauges which are dynamically "typed", and there are functional languages which are statically typed. Lumping the two terms together is misleading and useless. Static typing (done correctly) is just straight up better than dynamic typing. End sentence. I cannot count the number of times I have had errors at runtime working in python that simply would not have existed at all if I was using a statically typed language. With a sufficiently expressive type system, the types do not get in the way, but you still get compile-time enforced correct static semantics.
- 23david 14y ago
  I agree. Static typing is great. I don't know why all these scripting languages choose to throw out static typing. If a variable is always going to be an integer I don't know why its important to be able to stick characters, strings or objects into it without seeing any errors. It's good for a beginning programmer perhaps, but even with that I tend to disagree since it encourages bad practices. At some point I just got tired of seeing the same types of errors and wanted my tools to work a lot better. Python / PHP / Ruby aren't improved by lacking static types. How hard would it be to add static types into PHP, Ruby, or Python? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1365333/will-php-become-a-full-fledged-statically-typed-oop-language-in-the-near-future http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1365333/will-php-become-a...
  - eranation 14y ago
    I'm a big static typing fan, but the facts are out there, startups use Rails and Django, and front end is JavaScript, all are dynamically typed, yet very popular. A good static typed language that the only difference between it and Ruby / Python is the type system, has a good chance in being accepted by a larger audience of developers, both enterprise and startups. People prefer dynamic as they don't like to compile, and it provides rapid code / refresh cycles, I don't think anyone would say no to less bugs and better refactoring, and to self explanatory APIs using content assist.
- joshAg 14y ago
Evbn 14y ago
Not every amazing new technology is a Bootstrap website fronting a Facebook for ferrets social network game, my friend
- 23david 14y ago
  hey that's a good idea. the ferret industry clearly is ripe for market disruption.
spacemanaki 14y ago
> Scala does a wonderful thing, it allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python but stay in static Java land. rpearl already made a similar objection, but I think you're confusing things a bit here. How much of Scala is influenced by Ruby and Python? Aren't the main goodies in Scala related to the type system? Programmers using those "mainstream" dynamically typed languages don't have terribly much to be smug about, sure they're less verbose than Java, but I'd suggest they should also invest in learning a functional language or two, like Scala.
- tcc619 14y ago
  scala offers a syntax of programming similar to ruby especially in terms of collection operations. i found this to be a big win over java. scala: List(54,2,46).filter(x => x == 2) ruby: [54,2,46].select{|x| x == 2}
  - qu4z-2 14y ago
    C#: new List<int>{54, 2, 46}.Where(x => x == 2)
bunderbunder 14y ago
It's kind of interesting to see that the myth that functional and object-oriented programming are somehow mutually antagonistic is so readily accepted that it can even be perpetuated in an ode to an object-oriented functional language such as Scala.
kaffiene 14y ago
You know, I'd love to be a new wave avant-garde programmer but I'm stuck as an anorak-wearing Java programmer. No beret for me! I must be suffering some kind of cognitive dissonance, however. I know I'm supposed to be some kind of moronic corporate cog who doesn't know better but I have these odd phases where I distantly recall knowing multiple operating systems very well, I believe I know Vim, Emacs as well as several IDEs. What's more - although I know perfectly well that being a Java inmate, I shouldn't be able to see past my corporate sponsored thought blinkers - I do recall being able to program in C, C++, Lisp, Haskell and countless other languages. I even believe that I may have been doing this for decades. And weirdly enough - and this is the most shocking thing - I have this odd feeling that I may have chosen to stick with Java despite knowing perfectly well that it's not at all cool and entirely unproductive - Hacker News has told me that repeatedly, and PG can't be argued with, surely? Clearly, I need to find some twenty somethings to set me straight with a strong shot of Python therapy! Yep that's it. Although... crap! Don't I already know Python as well? Shit! What is wrong with me?
toomuchcoffee 14y ago
Umm, so you're saying vi is "new wave"?
- eranation 14y ago
  No, but having young fresh out of college developers prefer it over eclipse/VS, is new (to me), but I have a very narrow point of view of only the people I know from college / work / online.
evilduck 14y ago
I don't understand why the RoR community needs to endorse Scala as sucking less than Java?

CJefferson 14y ago

This is probably sounds insulting, but I just wanted to give you a warning. I spent some time deciding if your first sentence was a parody (Look at us new vim mac users with functional languages and git and startups). Very sorry that I am a C++ programmer, working in visual studio, as opposed to writing the latest to-do app in scala using vim.

eranation 14y ago
I'm using eclipse, and I can't leave my IDE, but I admire people who managed to free themselves from being dependent on an IDE, autocomplete / content assist. I tried VIM / Emacs / TextMate, didn't work for me, but perhaps I'm too old for new tricks, and already hooked to eclipse's shortcuts (ctrl+1 has no equivalent, I hardly need to write code, it's 50% shortcuts) I did like SublimeText 2, and use it for sass / scss / CoffeeScript and node development. No parody was intended, I have all respect to all developers where ever they are and what ever IDE / non-IDE they chose to work with.
- bearritto 14y ago
  Half the people pushing Scala tout Scala's tooling ecosystem. I use IntelliJ IDEA with the Scala plugin and you get code-complete and type aware tooling. In fact every developer I know that writes production Scala code uses an IDE. I have fuckall of a clue what an IDE has to do with Scala except for some sort of lifestyle statement.

mgkimsal 14y ago

"Scala does a wonderful thing, it allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python but stay in static Java land. which is great news for everyone." Groovy does the same thing with less friction and switching overhead.

cfontes 14y ago
Nanana... I know both, and Scala and Groovy are complety different tools Groovy is great to Websites and fast development they remove the code complexity and verbosity of java using type inference, some functional goodies like closures and add DSL capabilities,I use it everyday and it's a very nice tool. Scala is another kind of tool, it also does type inference and add functional goodies and support DSL BUT it have a deep love to parallelism (actors and non mutable objects as an example) and is way closer to the functional paradigm than Groovy, but it's more complex. So you gotta choose wisely so you don't end up with the hammer to a screw kind of problem. My view: Groovy is for fast development and WEB stuff mainly because of Grails which is an awesome tool as well. Scala is more a backend tool when you need Horse Power, but that's because the lang is more complex, I don't like Play and Lift is not as easy to understand as Grails. Again no Flamewars please.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  Wasn't trying to start a flamewar. Yes, they're completely different tools. Per the original quote though "it (scala) allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python" Groovy fits that bill far better than Scala if you're primarily looking for a taste, without having to adopt the complexity of a new worldview.
  - cfontes 14y ago
    I am sorry I said no flamewars because of what I was saying, to point that I didn't want to start one. Your answer was not the flamewars kind at all. And yes Groovy fits perfectly in that statement.
- chaostheory 14y ago

rpearl 14y ago

"dynamic and functional" I don't understand what you've said here. The two terms are entirely orthogonal. There are functional langauges which are dynamically "typed", and there are functional languages which are statically typed. Lumping the two terms together is misleading and useless. Static typing (done correctly) is just straight up better than dynamic typing. End sentence. I cannot count the number of times I have had errors at runtime working in python that simply would not have existed at all if I was using a statically typed language. With a sufficiently expressive type system, the types do not get in the way, but you still get compile-time enforced correct static semantics.

23david 14y ago
I agree. Static typing is great. I don't know why all these scripting languages choose to throw out static typing. If a variable is always going to be an integer I don't know why its important to be able to stick characters, strings or objects into it without seeing any errors. It's good for a beginning programmer perhaps, but even with that I tend to disagree since it encourages bad practices. At some point I just got tired of seeing the same types of errors and wanted my tools to work a lot better. Python / PHP / Ruby aren't improved by lacking static types. How hard would it be to add static types into PHP, Ruby, or Python? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1365333/will-php-become-a-full-fledged-statically-typed-oop-language-in-the-near-future http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1365333/will-php-become-a...
- eranation 14y ago
  I'm a big static typing fan, but the facts are out there, startups use Rails and Django, and front end is JavaScript, all are dynamically typed, yet very popular. A good static typed language that the only difference between it and Ruby / Python is the type system, has a good chance in being accepted by a larger audience of developers, both enterprise and startups. People prefer dynamic as they don't like to compile, and it provides rapid code / refresh cycles, I don't think anyone would say no to less bugs and better refactoring, and to self explanatory APIs using content assist.
joshAg 14y ago

Evbn 14y ago

Not every amazing new technology is a Bootstrap website fronting a Facebook for ferrets social network game, my friend

23david 14y ago
hey that's a good idea. the ferret industry clearly is ripe for market disruption.

spacemanaki 14y ago

> Scala does a wonderful thing, it allows enterprise developers to taste some of the goodies of Ruby / Python but stay in static Java land. rpearl already made a similar objection, but I think you're confusing things a bit here. How much of Scala is influenced by Ruby and Python? Aren't the main goodies in Scala related to the type system? Programmers using those "mainstream" dynamically typed languages don't have terribly much to be smug about, sure they're less verbose than Java, but I'd suggest they should also invest in learning a functional language or two, like Scala.

tcc619 14y ago
scala offers a syntax of programming similar to ruby especially in terms of collection operations. i found this to be a big win over java. scala: List(54,2,46).filter(x => x == 2) ruby: [54,2,46].select{|x| x == 2}
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  C#: new List<int>{54, 2, 46}.Where(x => x == 2)

bunderbunder 14y ago

It's kind of interesting to see that the myth that functional and object-oriented programming are somehow mutually antagonistic is so readily accepted that it can even be perpetuated in an ode to an object-oriented functional language such as Scala.

kaffiene 14y ago

You know, I'd love to be a new wave avant-garde programmer but I'm stuck as an anorak-wearing Java programmer. No beret for me! I must be suffering some kind of cognitive dissonance, however. I know I'm supposed to be some kind of moronic corporate cog who doesn't know better but I have these odd phases where I distantly recall knowing multiple operating systems very well, I believe I know Vim, Emacs as well as several IDEs. What's more - although I know perfectly well that being a Java inmate, I shouldn't be able to see past my corporate sponsored thought blinkers - I do recall being able to program in C, C++, Lisp, Haskell and countless other languages. I even believe that I may have been doing this for decades. And weirdly enough - and this is the most shocking thing - I have this odd feeling that I may have chosen to stick with Java despite knowing perfectly well that it's not at all cool and entirely unproductive - Hacker News has told me that repeatedly, and PG can't be argued with, surely? Clearly, I need to find some twenty somethings to set me straight with a strong shot of Python therapy! Yep that's it. Although... crap! Don't I already know Python as well? Shit! What is wrong with me?

toomuchcoffee 14y ago

Umm, so you're saying vi is "new wave"?

eranation 14y ago
No, but having young fresh out of college developers prefer it over eclipse/VS, is new (to me), but I have a very narrow point of view of only the people I know from college / work / online.

evilduck 14y ago

I don't understand why the RoR community needs to endorse Scala as sucking less than Java?