6 ms·

I like Framework and own one of their laptops. But the desktop seems more a triumph of gimmicky marketing than a desktop that's meaningfully different. And, it

I like Framework and own one of their laptops. But the desktop seems more a triumph of gimmicky marketing than a desktop that's meaningfully different. And, it seems significantly overpriced.

zozbot234 1y ago
It's taking a newly released mobile- and mini-PC-focused platform that's usually paired with proprietary technology, and building something that's as close as possible to a standard desktop with it. Seems very much in the Framework spirit once you account for that side of it.
- mschild 1y ago
  Right, but why go with mobile at all? I get the laptops. For desktop you already have thousands of choices though and reparability, assuming its not some proprietary Dell/HP desktop, is already as good as it gets without breaking out your soldering iron. That said, they'll know more about the market demand than I do and another option won't hurt :)
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    Supporting OSS and repairable hardware?
    - mschild 1y ago
      OSS is fair. From the product page I don't see how that mainboard is more repairable than a typical ITX one though. As far as I can tell, you also cannot change the CPU on it so even less than a typical desktop mainboard.
      - wiseowise 1y ago
        By buying their devices you directly support company and mission that they're on. I'm not a diehard OSS supporter (Mac user here), but I consider buying The Framework Desktop just to support the company over, say, Dell or HP.
        baby_souffle 1y ago
        > but I consider buying The Framework Desktop just to support the company over, say, Dell or HP. Exactly. Between those three companies, only one of them is likely to even try to make something like core boot possible on this machine. That’s something I can afford to encourage.
    - mtzet 1y ago
      A normal desktop with non-soldered components is more repairable, cheaper and can also run on stock Linux? The only selling point is the form factor and a massive amount of GPU memory, but a dGPU offers more raw compute.
      - wiseowise 1y ago
        > with non-soldered components is more repairable This is literally the limitation of the platform. Why even bring that up? Framework took a part made by AMD and put in their devices.
      - bsimpson 1y ago
        AMD APUs can run stock Linux. All those SteamOS handhelds are on AMD.
  - timc3 1y ago
    Because its using a Strix Halo APU which to some is kinda interesting, and to others all they need for sometime.
  - signal11 1y ago
    Quiet desktop PCs with good thermals have been getting increased interest — not everyone needs a tower, for some a Mac Mini-like device would work great, but not everyone wants to get into the Apple ecosystem for various reasons. Of course this PC is interesting in that it’s more “workstation class” and I’m not sure how much thermals matter there, but maybe this is an iteration towards a Mac Studio like device.
  - zozbot234 1y ago
    > Right, but why go with mobile at all? I get the laptops. Pair a power-efficient mobile chip with a mini-desktop form factor and a good (i.e. probably overengineered, to some extent) cooling solution, and it will give you a kind of sustained performance and reliability over time that you just aren't going to get from the average consumer/enthusiast desktop chip. Great for workstation-like use cases that still don't quite need the raw performance and official support you'd get from a real, honest-to-goodness HEDT.
    - extraisland 1y ago
      The most reliable computers I have are the "consumer/enthusiasts" computers I have.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - MindSpunk 1y ago
    The specific chip powering the Framework Desktop is something very unique in the PC landscape in general, even in desktop. The Strix Halo chip pairs a 16 core CPU with a huge iGPU that performs like a desktop discrete GPU, and 128GB of RAM (accessible on the GPU). Strix Halo is almost like having a PS5 or Xbox chip but available for the PC ecosystem. It's a super interesting and unique part for GPU compute, AI, or small form factor gaming.
komali2 1y ago
I'm realizing that I may have misunderstood Framework's market. I thought it was tinkerers and environmentally conscious FOSS nerds like me, but I think there maybe be a huge enterprise segment whose employees in charging of purchasing are like me but answer to much more strict business needs than "Isn't it cool that it comes with a screwdriver in the box?" So for example the underpowered cpu in the fw12 makes no sense to me until I found out that it's also designed for mass purchases by schools and designed to be flung around by angsty teens. The desktop seems to be meant to be strapped to the underside of 40 identical cubicals in an office as much as it's meant to be apparently hauled around by people that want to have CSGO lan parties.
- zozbot234 1y ago
  > So for example the underpowered cpu in the fw12 makes no sense to me until I found out that it's also designed for mass purchases by schools and designed to be flung around by angsty teens. I think that might be overstating it a bit. Real "rugged" laptops do exist, and would be quite at home in that kind of use (well, usually you'd worry a lot more about how kids in primary school will treat your hardware than teenagers) but the Framework 12 is not one.
  - FLHerne 1y ago
    Real "rugged" laptops are far too expensive for schools to buy by the dozen. Also, while robust against the environment they're not so much against deliberate vandalism or theft. The target market for those seems to be construction/industrial and similar, and of course the military. All school laptop fleets I've seen are simply the cheapest thing they can buy in bulk, when it breaks provision a new one.
    - tracker1 1y ago
      That's one point for the sub-$250 Chromebooks for sure.
rs186 1y ago
If you can't find an sufficiently similar alternative that is priced at a much better price, it is not overpriced.
- mrbluecoat 1y ago
  I guess the original Raspberry Pi team missed the memo on that.
- esafak 1y ago
  For the purposes of running LLM models, a Mac Mini. The PC is cheaper, but it doesn't have MacOS, Apple's service or resale value.
  - jchw 1y ago
    Actually the pricing is pretty similar. Framework Desktop price with default selections, 32GB of RAM, 500 GB storage: $1,242.00 USD Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM, 512 GB storage: $1,199.00 Post changed a bit since I started replying, so: > For the purposes of running LLM models, a Mac Mini The M4 Max is the one that actually gives you a shit load of memory bandwidth. If you just get a normal M4 it's not going to be especially good at that. > it doesn't have MacOS The Mac can't run Windows, which is used by ~75% of all desktop computer users and the main operating system that video games target. I'd say that would be the bigger problem for many. > Apple's service What advantage does that get you over Framework's service? > resale value Framework resale value has proven to be excellent by the way. Go to eBay, search "Framework Laptop", go to "Sold Items". Many SKUs seem to be retaining most of their value. (Nevermind the ease of repair for the Framework, or the superior expandability. If you want to expand the disk space on an M4 you need to get sketchy parts, possibly solder things, and rescue your Mac with another Mac. For framework devices you plug in another M.2 card.)
    - wtallis 1y ago
      > Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM, 512 GB storage: $1,199.00 You're looking at the wrong Mac Mini. The model with the M4 Pro is the right comparison, on account of also having a 256-bit memory bus giving substantially higher bandwidth than a typical desktop computer. The M4 Pro model doesn't have a 32GB option. The M4 Max (not available in a Mac Mini) has an even larger memory bus, giving it far more bandwidth than either the M4 Pro or the AMD Strix Halo part used by Framework.

I like Framework and own one of their laptops. But the desktop seems more a triumph of gimmicky marketing than a desktop that's meaningfully different. And, it seems significantly overpriced.

zozbot234 1y ago

It's taking a newly released mobile- and mini-PC-focused platform that's usually paired with proprietary technology, and building something that's as close as possible to a standard desktop with it. Seems very much in the Framework spirit once you account for that side of it.

mschild 1y ago
Right, but why go with mobile at all? I get the laptops. For desktop you already have thousands of choices though and reparability, assuming its not some proprietary Dell/HP desktop, is already as good as it gets without breaking out your soldering iron. That said, they'll know more about the market demand than I do and another option won't hurt :)
- wiseowise 1y ago
  Supporting OSS and repairable hardware?
  - mschild 1y ago
    OSS is fair. From the product page I don't see how that mainboard is more repairable than a typical ITX one though. As far as I can tell, you also cannot change the CPU on it so even less than a typical desktop mainboard.
    - wiseowise 1y ago
      By buying their devices you directly support company and mission that they're on. I'm not a diehard OSS supporter (Mac user here), but I consider buying The Framework Desktop just to support the company over, say, Dell or HP.
      - baby_souffle 1y ago
        > but I consider buying The Framework Desktop just to support the company over, say, Dell or HP. Exactly. Between those three companies, only one of them is likely to even try to make something like core boot possible on this machine. That’s something I can afford to encourage.
  - mtzet 1y ago
    A normal desktop with non-soldered components is more repairable, cheaper and can also run on stock Linux? The only selling point is the form factor and a massive amount of GPU memory, but a dGPU offers more raw compute.
    - wiseowise 1y ago
      > with non-soldered components is more repairable This is literally the limitation of the platform. Why even bring that up? Framework took a part made by AMD and put in their devices.
    - bsimpson 1y ago
      AMD APUs can run stock Linux. All those SteamOS handhelds are on AMD.
- timc3 1y ago
  Because its using a Strix Halo APU which to some is kinda interesting, and to others all they need for sometime.
- signal11 1y ago
  Quiet desktop PCs with good thermals have been getting increased interest — not everyone needs a tower, for some a Mac Mini-like device would work great, but not everyone wants to get into the Apple ecosystem for various reasons. Of course this PC is interesting in that it’s more “workstation class” and I’m not sure how much thermals matter there, but maybe this is an iteration towards a Mac Studio like device.
- zozbot234 1y ago
  > Right, but why go with mobile at all? I get the laptops. Pair a power-efficient mobile chip with a mini-desktop form factor and a good (i.e. probably overengineered, to some extent) cooling solution, and it will give you a kind of sustained performance and reliability over time that you just aren't going to get from the average consumer/enthusiast desktop chip. Great for workstation-like use cases that still don't quite need the raw performance and official support you'd get from a real, honest-to-goodness HEDT.
  - extraisland 1y ago
    The most reliable computers I have are the "consumer/enthusiasts" computers I have.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- MindSpunk 1y ago
  The specific chip powering the Framework Desktop is something very unique in the PC landscape in general, even in desktop. The Strix Halo chip pairs a 16 core CPU with a huge iGPU that performs like a desktop discrete GPU, and 128GB of RAM (accessible on the GPU). Strix Halo is almost like having a PS5 or Xbox chip but available for the PC ecosystem. It's a super interesting and unique part for GPU compute, AI, or small form factor gaming.

komali2 1y ago

I'm realizing that I may have misunderstood Framework's market. I thought it was tinkerers and environmentally conscious FOSS nerds like me, but I think there maybe be a huge enterprise segment whose employees in charging of purchasing are like me but answer to much more strict business needs than "Isn't it cool that it comes with a screwdriver in the box?" So for example the underpowered cpu in the fw12 makes no sense to me until I found out that it's also designed for mass purchases by schools and designed to be flung around by angsty teens. The desktop seems to be meant to be strapped to the underside of 40 identical cubicals in an office as much as it's meant to be apparently hauled around by people that want to have CSGO lan parties.

zozbot234 1y ago
> So for example the underpowered cpu in the fw12 makes no sense to me until I found out that it's also designed for mass purchases by schools and designed to be flung around by angsty teens. I think that might be overstating it a bit. Real "rugged" laptops do exist, and would be quite at home in that kind of use (well, usually you'd worry a lot more about how kids in primary school will treat your hardware than teenagers) but the Framework 12 is not one.
- FLHerne 1y ago
  Real "rugged" laptops are far too expensive for schools to buy by the dozen. Also, while robust against the environment they're not so much against deliberate vandalism or theft. The target market for those seems to be construction/industrial and similar, and of course the military. All school laptop fleets I've seen are simply the cheapest thing they can buy in bulk, when it breaks provision a new one.
  - tracker1 1y ago
    That's one point for the sub-$250 Chromebooks for sure.

rs186 1y ago

If you can't find an sufficiently similar alternative that is priced at a much better price, it is not overpriced.

mrbluecoat 1y ago
I guess the original Raspberry Pi team missed the memo on that.
esafak 1y ago
For the purposes of running LLM models, a Mac Mini. The PC is cheaper, but it doesn't have MacOS, Apple's service or resale value.
- jchw 1y ago
  Actually the pricing is pretty similar. Framework Desktop price with default selections, 32GB of RAM, 500 GB storage: $1,242.00 USD Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM, 512 GB storage: $1,199.00 Post changed a bit since I started replying, so: > For the purposes of running LLM models, a Mac Mini The M4 Max is the one that actually gives you a shit load of memory bandwidth. If you just get a normal M4 it's not going to be especially good at that. > it doesn't have MacOS The Mac can't run Windows, which is used by ~75% of all desktop computer users and the main operating system that video games target. I'd say that would be the bigger problem for many. > Apple's service What advantage does that get you over Framework's service? > resale value Framework resale value has proven to be excellent by the way. Go to eBay, search "Framework Laptop", go to "Sold Items". Many SKUs seem to be retaining most of their value. (Nevermind the ease of repair for the Framework, or the superior expandability. If you want to expand the disk space on an M4 you need to get sketchy parts, possibly solder things, and rescue your Mac with another Mac. For framework devices you plug in another M.2 card.)
  - wtallis 1y ago
    > Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM, 512 GB storage: $1,199.00 You're looking at the wrong Mac Mini. The model with the M4 Pro is the right comparison, on account of also having a 256-bit memory bus giving substantially higher bandwidth than a typical desktop computer. The M4 Pro model doesn't have a 32GB option. The M4 Max (not available in a Mac Mini) has an even larger memory bus, giving it far more bandwidth than either the M4 Pro or the AMD Strix Halo part used by Framework.