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Even then, a EURO5 diesel still makes quite a stink. Of course, even an EU6+OPF gasoline car still puts out air akin to a dying dog's fart. ICE vehicles just c

Even then, a EURO5 diesel still makes quite a stink. Of course, even an EU6+OPF gasoline car still puts out air akin to a dying dog's fart. ICE vehicles just can't go away quickly enough (and we should aggressively get stinky vehicles like everything pre-EU5 and loud vehicles like motorcycles and scooters off the road first). I'm not huge on regulation, but if anything MIV is underregulated. Even in the EU anything that was street-legal at some point in the past 70 years is grandfathered in, nevermind that illegal vehicle modifications - if caught - at most earn a slap on the wrist. That's enormously dumb and doesn't fly anywhere else.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago
I can’t wait for tiny engines like on things like weed eaters and leaf blowers to go extinct. Noisy, smelly as hell, generally awful.
- cperciva 1y ago
  A lot of cities have banned them now, at least for personal use. (Last time this was debated in my area, some businesses had justifications for why they couldn't just use electric tools, but none of those applied to regular homeowners.)
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    A lawn service that is working 8-10 hours a day can't use battery tools unless they buy a lot of batteries and/or have a way to recharge them in the field (from a gasoline-powered generator, most likely). So their complaint has some validity.
    - senorrib 1y ago
      BS. Gasoline is just more convenient and cheaper for them. 40V batteries last long enough that you only need a handful of them to last a whole day.
      - SoftTalker 1y ago
        I have 40V electric lawn mower. It takes nearly the full charge on two batteries to cut my average suburban-sized lawn. Sometimes I can't even complete it on that depending how tall the grass is. Add in edge trimming and blowing away the clippings and then multiply that by a number of lawns or larger properties and I think you would need dozens of batteries. BTW "more convenient and cheaper" are strong arguments when you're in a competitive business. Lawn services are usually just a guy with a truck hustling for customers. The more lawns you can cut the more money you make. Anything that causes downtime such as running out of charged batteries is going to be a large negative.
        Thlom 1y ago
        Insane that there's a market for a dude with a lawn mower these days when you can get a good enough robot mower for $1000 ...
        cperciva 1y ago
        Good enough for what? I'd love to have a lawn mower which can dump grass clippings in my compost pile (mulching them and leaving them behind is better for the lawn, I know, but my wife is allergic to grass so this would basically mean she never gets to use the lawn). Also, we have two apple trees which spend a few months dropping apples on the lawn, so I'd like to have a robot lawn mower which can pick up the apples and toss them in the compost pile too. Oh, and there's a gate separating the front yard from the back yard, so it would be great if it can open and close the gate. Robot lawn mowers are getting better, but I have yet to see one which can handle every situation that humans routinely handle.
        vel0city 1y ago
        I have a 56V electric lawn mower. It takes nearly the full charge of one battery to mow my slightly larger suburban lawn. Trimming and blowing and what not gets handled by my second smaller battery. My largest battery isn't even the largest they make for this model line. I've been on the same two batteries for five years now. I use E-Go. I'd say your system is just undersized for your needs. Judging by having two batteries, it sounds like your system is one of those based around hand power tools batteries and then attempted to scale those up to lawn mowers. I've mostly heard bad things about this path. There's a lot of other experiences out there.
    - prmoustache 1y ago
      Sheep and goats don't need to be recharged. They feed while doing the lawn.
      - _heimdall 1y ago
        My cows do a pretty good job, but I've always heard that the way llamas eat works extremely well for grass management. Something about biting off the grass rather than pulling/tearing it.
    - cperciva 1y ago
      Yeah, that's one of the issues they raised. The other issue was that they often get called in for jobs where battery tools simply aren't powerful enough. (e.g. clearing a completely overgrown yard as opposed to regular lawn maintenance.)
      - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
        It’s not practical for all crews at present due to costs, but as EVs become more entrenched, the problem will solve itself. You keep an extra set or two of batteries that the truck charges and you swap as needed, not that different from having to stop to refill on gas. Energy density of batteries is improving too, so the amount of time between swaps will be increasing.
        cperciva 1y ago
        Yes, we're definitely moving in that direction.
      - _heimdall 1y ago
        I have Ego's bicycle handle brush cutter, think a weed whacker on steroids with a metal blade. That think does some serious work. I've cleared acres of overgrown mess with it. 2 6aH batteries will outlast me (~2 hours) before I need a break and the fast charger tops one up in maybe 30 minutes. Lawn mowers are really where batteries fall apart. They go through a charge extremely fast, especially if the grass is even moderately overgrown. Most mowers are meant to be finish mowers where you aren't taking off much grass at all, say 1/4" up to maybe 1". Electric mowers really demand that or you'll run out of juice very fast.
_heimdall 1y ago
> ICE vehicles just can't go away quickly enough We do have to either replace them with something else or stop owning personal vehicles. The end goal may be better, but that transition will be long and it will break plenty of things along the way.
- speedgoose 1y ago
  Transition is almost done around Oslo, and we are doing fine.
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    Do people there only use cars around town or for short road trips? I know the trains in Sweden were great when I was there a few years ago, I assume Norway would be similar.
    - speedgoose 1y ago
      A classic usage is driving to the cabin. Now, yes few people drive as far as possible without breaks.
    - nairboon 1y ago
      > Do people there only use cars around town or for short road trips? Modern mid-size EVs have a range of more than 400-500km. To put this into perspective, the drive from Oslo to Bergen, the other end of the country (latitudinal) is about 460km and takes 7h. You could possibly make that without even recharging, if you manage to sit still, without a break, for 7 hours.
- iknowstuff 1y ago
  It really doesn’t have to. I’d say look at Norway but you’ll dismiss it as a rich country without looking up the actual reason behind their transition’s success. I’d say look at China but you’d say yeah but that’s China. We can make the same decision and move fast in the direction, we just choose not to

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

I can’t wait for tiny engines like on things like weed eaters and leaf blowers to go extinct. Noisy, smelly as hell, generally awful.

cperciva 1y ago
A lot of cities have banned them now, at least for personal use. (Last time this was debated in my area, some businesses had justifications for why they couldn't just use electric tools, but none of those applied to regular homeowners.)
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  A lawn service that is working 8-10 hours a day can't use battery tools unless they buy a lot of batteries and/or have a way to recharge them in the field (from a gasoline-powered generator, most likely). So their complaint has some validity.
  - senorrib 1y ago
    BS. Gasoline is just more convenient and cheaper for them. 40V batteries last long enough that you only need a handful of them to last a whole day.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      I have 40V electric lawn mower. It takes nearly the full charge on two batteries to cut my average suburban-sized lawn. Sometimes I can't even complete it on that depending how tall the grass is. Add in edge trimming and blowing away the clippings and then multiply that by a number of lawns or larger properties and I think you would need dozens of batteries. BTW "more convenient and cheaper" are strong arguments when you're in a competitive business. Lawn services are usually just a guy with a truck hustling for customers. The more lawns you can cut the more money you make. Anything that causes downtime such as running out of charged batteries is going to be a large negative.
      - Thlom 1y ago
        Insane that there's a market for a dude with a lawn mower these days when you can get a good enough robot mower for $1000 ...
        cperciva 1y ago
        Good enough for what? I'd love to have a lawn mower which can dump grass clippings in my compost pile (mulching them and leaving them behind is better for the lawn, I know, but my wife is allergic to grass so this would basically mean she never gets to use the lawn). Also, we have two apple trees which spend a few months dropping apples on the lawn, so I'd like to have a robot lawn mower which can pick up the apples and toss them in the compost pile too. Oh, and there's a gate separating the front yard from the back yard, so it would be great if it can open and close the gate. Robot lawn mowers are getting better, but I have yet to see one which can handle every situation that humans routinely handle.
      - vel0city 1y ago
        I have a 56V electric lawn mower. It takes nearly the full charge of one battery to mow my slightly larger suburban lawn. Trimming and blowing and what not gets handled by my second smaller battery. My largest battery isn't even the largest they make for this model line. I've been on the same two batteries for five years now. I use E-Go. I'd say your system is just undersized for your needs. Judging by having two batteries, it sounds like your system is one of those based around hand power tools batteries and then attempted to scale those up to lawn mowers. I've mostly heard bad things about this path. There's a lot of other experiences out there.
  - prmoustache 1y ago
    Sheep and goats don't need to be recharged. They feed while doing the lawn.
    - _heimdall 1y ago
      My cows do a pretty good job, but I've always heard that the way llamas eat works extremely well for grass management. Something about biting off the grass rather than pulling/tearing it.
  - cperciva 1y ago
    Yeah, that's one of the issues they raised. The other issue was that they often get called in for jobs where battery tools simply aren't powerful enough. (e.g. clearing a completely overgrown yard as opposed to regular lawn maintenance.)
    - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
      It’s not practical for all crews at present due to costs, but as EVs become more entrenched, the problem will solve itself. You keep an extra set or two of batteries that the truck charges and you swap as needed, not that different from having to stop to refill on gas. Energy density of batteries is improving too, so the amount of time between swaps will be increasing.
      - cperciva 1y ago
        Yes, we're definitely moving in that direction.
    - _heimdall 1y ago
      I have Ego's bicycle handle brush cutter, think a weed whacker on steroids with a metal blade. That think does some serious work. I've cleared acres of overgrown mess with it. 2 6aH batteries will outlast me (~2 hours) before I need a break and the fast charger tops one up in maybe 30 minutes. Lawn mowers are really where batteries fall apart. They go through a charge extremely fast, especially if the grass is even moderately overgrown. Most mowers are meant to be finish mowers where you aren't taking off much grass at all, say 1/4" up to maybe 1". Electric mowers really demand that or you'll run out of juice very fast.

_heimdall 1y ago

> ICE vehicles just can't go away quickly enough We do have to either replace them with something else or stop owning personal vehicles. The end goal may be better, but that transition will be long and it will break plenty of things along the way.

speedgoose 1y ago
Transition is almost done around Oslo, and we are doing fine.
- _heimdall 1y ago
  Do people there only use cars around town or for short road trips? I know the trains in Sweden were great when I was there a few years ago, I assume Norway would be similar.
  - speedgoose 1y ago
    A classic usage is driving to the cabin. Now, yes few people drive as far as possible without breaks.
  - nairboon 1y ago
    > Do people there only use cars around town or for short road trips? Modern mid-size EVs have a range of more than 400-500km. To put this into perspective, the drive from Oslo to Bergen, the other end of the country (latitudinal) is about 460km and takes 7h. You could possibly make that without even recharging, if you manage to sit still, without a break, for 7 hours.
iknowstuff 1y ago
It really doesn’t have to. I’d say look at Norway but you’ll dismiss it as a rich country without looking up the actual reason behind their transition’s success. I’d say look at China but you’d say yeah but that’s China. We can make the same decision and move fast in the direction, we just choose not to