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> However, the theory always said that a minimum wage rise reduces the number of jobs so it is a strong chance that around 20,000 people were put out of work by

by ath3nd 1y ago

> However, the theory always said that a minimum wage rise reduces the number of jobs so it is a strong chance that around 20,000 people were put out of work by this policy. 20,000 people were put out of jobs by employers who didn't want to pay them what they are worth and instead wanted to exploit them. If you can't afford to pay livable wages to your workers, your business shouldn't exist.

unnamed76ri 1y ago
Aside from really terrible home experiences for a tiny minority, a part time job for a 15 year old doesn’t need a “livable wage” We don’t need kids working in coal mines but we also don’t need to make it near impossible for them to get work experience at a part time job because their skill level doesn’t align with $20/hr.
- dvrj101 1y ago
  solution : youth wage, below the standard minimum for the first year of work but that's not good enough for people who decided to close business because they cannot exploit anymore.
  - unnamed76ri 1y ago
    California is home to the largest number of illegal immigrants being exploited for cheap farm labor. If CA really cared about exploited people, they would have done something about that. And by done something, I don’t mean encouraging and protecting its continuation.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      Border controls and dealing with illegal immigration is under federal jurisdiction. What do you expect California to do about it?
      - miley_cyrus 1y ago
        How about not encourage and exacerbate illegal immigration? https://mayor.lacity.gov/news/mayor-bass-issues-executive-directive-support-immigrant-communities https://mayor.lacity.gov/news/mayor-bass-issues-executive-di...
        dvrj101 1y ago
        where's the raid on drug sellers, distributors or human trafficking. Avg people trying to make living getting arrested right at court's doorstep is not crackdown on crime by illegals. some guy working 8-12 hours shift, has family and participate in community programs is suddenly getting deported to nowhere is making America safe again ? This looks more like making lowest white people better than everyone else
    - dvrj101 1y ago
      typical bootlickers response to deflect from uplifting lower class people. Either move it to crying illegal immigrants or they already have enough with social welfare lol. It's amazing how you'll defend top 1% getting tax cut's when we need a small part of it actually help avg. person's anxiety of not living paycheck to paycheck. Decades of tax cut's for top financial class did not workout of everyone else, the extra money did not trickle down but was used to buy politicians to get more tax payer money Raising minimum wage will close down businesses depending on exploitation and help businesses who are ethical enough to give working class their fair share.
      - roenxi 1y ago
        We know what uplifting lower class people looks like - the formula that works as seen in Asia, Europe and the US was masses of factories, lots of capital investment and tolerating high pollution. Minimum wages don't seem to be part of the equation. If this was about 'uplifting' people then the law proposed would be positive (ie, what should they be doing instead of working in fast food) instead of a negative one (people who can't justify a $20/hr wage can't be employed in fast food).
  - skippyboxedhero 1y ago
    This creates an incentive to hire lots of young people and not hire unskilled older people. In the UK which has a youth wage, has had negative productivity growth, and has had a series of extremely unpopular governments who needed to use minimum wage growth to support their growth, you have seen large employers mix towards younger staff (where that is possible, in other cases you have seen employers use government programs to import below minimum wage migrants) and let go older staff en masse (employers in the UK also have auto-enroll into pensions, but only over 22). It simply isn't possible, particularly in economies that have structural problems, for productivity growth to just appear magically when politicians request it. This is a classic problem with economic intervention: you intervene, change incentives, agents do something unexpected, and the result is more intervention, more distortion, on and on. Politically, this is gold because politicians look like they are doing something. No-one asks whether that thing needs to be done at all.
- ath3nd 1y ago
  > Aside from really terrible home experiences for a tiny minority, a part time job for a 15 year old doesn’t need a “livable wage” Said who? The same people who don't pay internships. > but we also don’t need to make it near impossible for them to get work experience at a part time job because their skill level doesn’t align with $20/hr. When minimum wage goes up, other more skilled labor also goes up, and adults will go somewhere better paid. Then the business will have no choice but hire the kids at the $20/hr and they will get that work experience you so want to bestow upon them. It's funny you are trying to twist it like it's gonna be a problem to find work experience for the poor poor kids, while all we know the business care about is how to exploit people at the lowest possible pay. It's always "think of the children" with a specific crowd, an unhealthy obsession with children, I'd say. Think of the children and ban XYZ books cause poor children can't comprehend what they are reading (allows us to ban books we don't like) Think of the children and introduce chat control so we can track everybody and monetize their data (allows us to exploit everybody) Think of the children and don't raise the minimum wage cause poor children can't find internships and part time jobs (allows us to exploit everybody) There is a pattern here, not sure if you are ready to acknowledge it.
  - unnamed76ri 1y ago
    Your utopian worldview has come up against the reality of 18k people being out of work. “We are going to increase minimum wage so you can have a livable wage!” “Yay!…wait now I have no wages. Why didn’t this work like you said?”
    - ath3nd 1y ago
      > “Yay!…wait now I have no wages. Why didn’t this work like you said?” It did. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum-wage-impact/3686092/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum... "Though in the same month, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics showed California had approximately 750,000 fast food jobs, roughly 11,000 more than when the higher minimum wage law took effect" "The Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics at UC Berkeley compared Glassdoor job posts and online food menu prices two weeks before the minimum wage raise and 2 weeks after. It found that wages increased by 18%, employment numbers remained stable and menu prices increased by only 3 to 7%, or 15 cents on a $4 burger." Employment numbers remained stable, which is great, meaning the 18k people now are employed at other places at at least 20-25% wage increase. I will repeat it again: If a business can't afford to pay its workers, the business shouldn't exist.
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  Seems like if McD needs this sort of labour its a weird business model. It can only deliver by paying people supported by their parents who are doing the work for pocket money or experience. And can only work outside of school hours and will need to quit in a year or two. Now if they pay the teenager half the wage the same adult is doing then someone is getting a raw deal.
- timbit42 1y ago
  A 15 year old DOES need a living wage. How else are they going to save for post-secondary education? Is keeping them out of post-secondary preferable to you? Maybe your parents paid for yours, but not everyone has that.
mc32 1y ago
Didn’t want to often can mean cannot. Many of those businesses would go bankrupt. Also some people who may have started a business will now forgo that possibility. Now, for many that’s okay. People just have to be okay that that happens. Also, now those people affected have no wages.
- ath3nd 1y ago
  > Also, now those people affected have no wages. Nah, most of them are most likely already employed somewhere else at a 25% wage increase. Note that the unemployment actually didn't spike up according to a different study: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum-wage-impact/3686092/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum... so that allows us to assume these people got a better wage somewhere else, at only a marginal increase to the consumer.
  - mc32 1y ago
    It's possible. It's probably too early to tell and things will settle in due time. One possible outcome is that if high minimum wages are placed across the board in all states and the feds enforce e-verify that we'll become a bit like Switzerland where everyone nominally earns more compared to other OECD countries but also things (good and services) are relatively more expensive too. It potentially could pull people who've been out of the labor pool (undercut by low wages/cheap labor) back in to it, if the right policies are put in place. It's probably not a bad deal for US workers as we all would have a higher standard of living but also live in a more expensive society --in the end that's probably better for everyone (in the US).
- timbit42 1y ago
  If a business can't provide a living wage, then whoever is running it is bad at doing so or chose the wrong business model. They should close. Why do you want poor business operators to remain in business?
  - mc32 1y ago
    There are many self-employed people in the third world who do not earn "living wages" what do you propose they do? Never was minimum wage equivalent to a living wage. A living wage is an ill-defined term. Does it mean I can afford the smallest apartment and afford just enough food to survive or are we adding small luxuries to this? None of the Nordic countries have a minimum wage --on the other hand they don't have a large undercurrent of illegal labor undercutting the minimum natives will accept as a minimum wage. That said, I don't have a horse in this fight. I don't think business have a "right" to cheap labor and if they can't survive without it, then so be it. Of course people have to understand their services and goods will go up in price and they should be okay with that. Maybe they stop depending on someone else doing and making things for them and start making their own stuff at home.
JustExAWS 1y ago
Does that apply to all of the VC backed companies that are losing money? How many companies in CA that are paying minimum wage have the ability to be sustained for years by investors?

by ath3nd 1y ago

unnamed76ri 1y ago

Aside from really terrible home experiences for a tiny minority, a part time job for a 15 year old doesn’t need a “livable wage” We don’t need kids working in coal mines but we also don’t need to make it near impossible for them to get work experience at a part time job because their skill level doesn’t align with $20/hr.

dvrj101 1y ago
solution : youth wage, below the standard minimum for the first year of work but that's not good enough for people who decided to close business because they cannot exploit anymore.
- unnamed76ri 1y ago
  California is home to the largest number of illegal immigrants being exploited for cheap farm labor. If CA really cared about exploited people, they would have done something about that. And by done something, I don’t mean encouraging and protecting its continuation.
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Border controls and dealing with illegal immigration is under federal jurisdiction. What do you expect California to do about it?
    - miley_cyrus 1y ago
      How about not encourage and exacerbate illegal immigration? https://mayor.lacity.gov/news/mayor-bass-issues-executive-directive-support-immigrant-communities https://mayor.lacity.gov/news/mayor-bass-issues-executive-di...
      - dvrj101 1y ago
        where's the raid on drug sellers, distributors or human trafficking. Avg people trying to make living getting arrested right at court's doorstep is not crackdown on crime by illegals. some guy working 8-12 hours shift, has family and participate in community programs is suddenly getting deported to nowhere is making America safe again ? This looks more like making lowest white people better than everyone else
  - dvrj101 1y ago
    typical bootlickers response to deflect from uplifting lower class people. Either move it to crying illegal immigrants or they already have enough with social welfare lol. It's amazing how you'll defend top 1% getting tax cut's when we need a small part of it actually help avg. person's anxiety of not living paycheck to paycheck. Decades of tax cut's for top financial class did not workout of everyone else, the extra money did not trickle down but was used to buy politicians to get more tax payer money Raising minimum wage will close down businesses depending on exploitation and help businesses who are ethical enough to give working class their fair share.
    - roenxi 1y ago
      We know what uplifting lower class people looks like - the formula that works as seen in Asia, Europe and the US was masses of factories, lots of capital investment and tolerating high pollution. Minimum wages don't seem to be part of the equation. If this was about 'uplifting' people then the law proposed would be positive (ie, what should they be doing instead of working in fast food) instead of a negative one (people who can't justify a $20/hr wage can't be employed in fast food).
- skippyboxedhero 1y ago
  This creates an incentive to hire lots of young people and not hire unskilled older people. In the UK which has a youth wage, has had negative productivity growth, and has had a series of extremely unpopular governments who needed to use minimum wage growth to support their growth, you have seen large employers mix towards younger staff (where that is possible, in other cases you have seen employers use government programs to import below minimum wage migrants) and let go older staff en masse (employers in the UK also have auto-enroll into pensions, but only over 22). It simply isn't possible, particularly in economies that have structural problems, for productivity growth to just appear magically when politicians request it. This is a classic problem with economic intervention: you intervene, change incentives, agents do something unexpected, and the result is more intervention, more distortion, on and on. Politically, this is gold because politicians look like they are doing something. No-one asks whether that thing needs to be done at all.
ath3nd 1y ago
> Aside from really terrible home experiences for a tiny minority, a part time job for a 15 year old doesn’t need a “livable wage” Said who? The same people who don't pay internships. > but we also don’t need to make it near impossible for them to get work experience at a part time job because their skill level doesn’t align with $20/hr. When minimum wage goes up, other more skilled labor also goes up, and adults will go somewhere better paid. Then the business will have no choice but hire the kids at the $20/hr and they will get that work experience you so want to bestow upon them. It's funny you are trying to twist it like it's gonna be a problem to find work experience for the poor poor kids, while all we know the business care about is how to exploit people at the lowest possible pay. It's always "think of the children" with a specific crowd, an unhealthy obsession with children, I'd say. Think of the children and ban XYZ books cause poor children can't comprehend what they are reading (allows us to ban books we don't like) Think of the children and introduce chat control so we can track everybody and monetize their data (allows us to exploit everybody) Think of the children and don't raise the minimum wage cause poor children can't find internships and part time jobs (allows us to exploit everybody) There is a pattern here, not sure if you are ready to acknowledge it.
- unnamed76ri 1y ago
  Your utopian worldview has come up against the reality of 18k people being out of work. “We are going to increase minimum wage so you can have a livable wage!” “Yay!…wait now I have no wages. Why didn’t this work like you said?”
  - ath3nd 1y ago
    > “Yay!…wait now I have no wages. Why didn’t this work like you said?” It did. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum-wage-impact/3686092/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum... "Though in the same month, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics showed California had approximately 750,000 fast food jobs, roughly 11,000 more than when the higher minimum wage law took effect" "The Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics at UC Berkeley compared Glassdoor job posts and online food menu prices two weeks before the minimum wage raise and 2 weeks after. It found that wages increased by 18%, employment numbers remained stable and menu prices increased by only 3 to 7%, or 15 cents on a $4 burger." Employment numbers remained stable, which is great, meaning the 18k people now are employed at other places at at least 20-25% wage increase. I will repeat it again: If a business can't afford to pay its workers, the business shouldn't exist.
bravesoul2 1y ago
Seems like if McD needs this sort of labour its a weird business model. It can only deliver by paying people supported by their parents who are doing the work for pocket money or experience. And can only work outside of school hours and will need to quit in a year or two. Now if they pay the teenager half the wage the same adult is doing then someone is getting a raw deal.
timbit42 1y ago
A 15 year old DOES need a living wage. How else are they going to save for post-secondary education? Is keeping them out of post-secondary preferable to you? Maybe your parents paid for yours, but not everyone has that.

mc32 1y ago

Didn’t want to often can mean cannot. Many of those businesses would go bankrupt. Also some people who may have started a business will now forgo that possibility. Now, for many that’s okay. People just have to be okay that that happens. Also, now those people affected have no wages.

ath3nd 1y ago
> Also, now those people affected have no wages. Nah, most of them are most likely already employed somewhere else at a 25% wage increase. Note that the unemployment actually didn't spike up according to a different study: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum-wage-impact/3686092/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/california-minimum... so that allows us to assume these people got a better wage somewhere else, at only a marginal increase to the consumer.
- mc32 1y ago
  It's possible. It's probably too early to tell and things will settle in due time. One possible outcome is that if high minimum wages are placed across the board in all states and the feds enforce e-verify that we'll become a bit like Switzerland where everyone nominally earns more compared to other OECD countries but also things (good and services) are relatively more expensive too. It potentially could pull people who've been out of the labor pool (undercut by low wages/cheap labor) back in to it, if the right policies are put in place. It's probably not a bad deal for US workers as we all would have a higher standard of living but also live in a more expensive society --in the end that's probably better for everyone (in the US).
timbit42 1y ago
If a business can't provide a living wage, then whoever is running it is bad at doing so or chose the wrong business model. They should close. Why do you want poor business operators to remain in business?
- mc32 1y ago
  There are many self-employed people in the third world who do not earn "living wages" what do you propose they do? Never was minimum wage equivalent to a living wage. A living wage is an ill-defined term. Does it mean I can afford the smallest apartment and afford just enough food to survive or are we adding small luxuries to this? None of the Nordic countries have a minimum wage --on the other hand they don't have a large undercurrent of illegal labor undercutting the minimum natives will accept as a minimum wage. That said, I don't have a horse in this fight. I don't think business have a "right" to cheap labor and if they can't survive without it, then so be it. Of course people have to understand their services and goods will go up in price and they should be okay with that. Maybe they stop depending on someone else doing and making things for them and start making their own stuff at home.

JustExAWS 1y ago

Does that apply to all of the VC backed companies that are losing money? How many companies in CA that are paying minimum wage have the ability to be sustained for years by investors?