7 ms·

Where oh where is Windows Phone 8?

41 points by czr80 14y ago

SlipperySlope 14y ago
Essentially ... "Whatever the cause of the delays—whether they're because Microsoft has bitten off more than it can chew with the kernel transition, or due to some other reason—the situation is now growing critical. It's not just that it's annoying developers; the delays are undoubtedly hurting Redmond's hardware partners."
- mtgx 14y ago
  I wonder if the Windows 8 kernel will also hurt Microsoft's chances for ever competing on the mass market. So far all of the announced WP8 phones are using hardware like Qualcomm's latest gen S4 chip, which could be a way for them to streamline the launch process, but it could also be a performance issue with WP8 (based on Windows 8 kernel), which I doubt is as lean and nimble as WP7 (based on Windows Embedded).
  - jinushaun 14y ago
    It has always been my theory that WP7 hardware can't suitably run WP8 OS with good performance, which is why WP7 phones aren't being upgraded to WP8.
  - SlipperySlope 14y ago
    I expect that the Windows 8 kernel will run great on the Intel mobile parts, should the latter become widely adopted.
  - jerlam 14y ago
    Well, targeting current high-end hardware (and tomorrow's merely average hardware) may be a better strategy than Microsoft's attempt with WP Tango, which targeted low-end hardware on a platform that was already behind the competition. I would assume that Microsoft is smart enough to avoid pushing two separate ecosystems (WP7 and WP8) since they don't have a real foothold with one.
freehunter 14y ago
As a user of WP7 who is looking forward to WP8, I really really want to give them the benefit of the doubt that there is a major ace up their sleeve they can't talk about for competitive reasons. Something like Nintendo announcing the Wii remote early enough for Sony to quickly switch to motion-sensing controllers as well. Something huge and disruptive that is so critical to their success that none of their competitors can know in time to ape. I can't recall a single time Microsoft has ever done that, though...
- ams6110 14y ago
  Kinect?
  - pooriaazimi 14y ago
    I'm sure I had a video of the "Kinect" concept (from Microsoft Research) from 4 or 5 years ago! I could be mistaken, but I think they released a lot of "concept" videos like that through out the years, and then released the actual device.
- joenathan 14y ago
  Direct X and a shared kernel with Windows 8 proper is already pretty big IMO. I have a Nexus S(Running JB) and I'm going to be giving WP8 a serious look when it comes time to upgrade.
  - mtgx 14y ago
    So far only "Angry Birds" type games have been announced as "Xbox Games" for Windows 8/RT.
    - joenathan 14y ago
      It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. When developers make Xbox games(Xbox uses Direct X), and Windows games(again Direct X), it will be trivial for them to also target WP8/WinRT.
- 14y ago
randallu 14y ago
So they ended up doing (what sounds like, or may as well be) a complete rewrite and it's taking them much longer than they expected? Shocker! It sounds like they're running the WP7 apps in a compatibility box. Is that right? One issue developing for Android is the huge API sprawl. Android has this immense surface area of public API now, and they only add new methods and classes every release (I'd love to know how the framework engineers on Android feel about this, because it certainly detracts from the app development experience...). So a compatibility box sounds like a good idea in that case, though making everyone rewrite their apps isn't a good idea...
- SlipperySlope 14y ago
  In order to use WP8-specific features, developers will need to use a new development model. This is more friction for developers when compared to using comparable new features in iOS or Android, where the development model is unchanged, but new APIs are utilized. One can only imagine the sorts of bureaucratic infighting within Microsoft as various development tool factions seek to discard the work of factions falling out of favor. In contrast consider how long Apple stuck by Objective-C as its chief development framework.
  - xradionut 14y ago
    > "In order to use WP8-specific features, developers will need to use a new development model. " It's not only the WP8 model. Windows 8 has changed, Server 2012 has changed, and so on... I have so many new keys and downloads available at MSDN, I have to take time to plan what I want to load into a vitual machine and start testing against.
  - ams6110 14y ago
    Apple hasn't really consistenly stuck by Objective-C; they tried to push people in the Java direction for OS X "Cocoa" development maybe about 10 years ago. Never really caught on, though.
    - randallu 14y ago
sounds 14y ago
If there's one thing Apple has executed on, it's the synthesis of hardware and software. That's an often overlooked key to a successful customer experience. Android has some decent hardware - Galaxy S III apparently but I haven't tried it yet - but unless you luck out and a carrier throws you an Ice Cream Sandwich or Jelly Bean, what's the point? Microsoft knows they need something, but if they don't have some pretty awesome software they'll be in the same place Android is. (Sans patent lawsuits)
- SlipperySlope 14y ago
  Microsoft has been crushed by Android in mobile. From a once dominating position, Microsoft phone OS's now get lumped in the 'other' category when market share pie charts are illustrated. Despite patent licensing fees, Google's Android is free to use - or to fork as was done by Amazon. This is a resounding win for Linux. On the other hand Apple effectively gives away iOS when you buy or upgrade one of their mobile products. What niche is left for Microsoft - even if they do create some pretty awesome software?
  - sounds 14y ago
    Oh I wouldn't write Microsoft off entirely yet. Nokia is probably a dodo at this point, but it would be a bit hasty to forget Microsoft's $60 billion in cash [1] I do think Microsoft is trying to apply PC-era tactics to embedded devices. It's like they're chatting up that hot girl who, it turns out, is a ninja assassin on a psycho killing spree. The only thing the embedded world produces with any regularity is bankrupt companies; what I'm saying is, companies like HTC and Samsung are used to an intensity that Nokia may never figure out. Microsoft is capable of surviving in the embedded world, but they probably won't "wake up" for another year at least. [1] http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=msft http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=msft
    - SlipperySlope 14y ago
      Agree that technically mobile is embedded, but mobile is more popularly considered a separate market from embedded. For example, while a phone and a washing machine may have the same sort of CPU, most engineers consider these separate markets. Do you think that Steve Ballmer will be the one that wakes up, or does the board find a new chief executive?
kia 14y ago
But what was a little surprising is that there were no handsets for the press to play with. There were some demonstration units carefully attended by PR personnel, and while we were able to get kind of close to them, the general rule was "you can look but you can't touch." Looking at this [1] video I would say that this article is just another BS from Ars. [1] http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/nokia-lumia-920-slate/4505-6452_7-35437152.html http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/nokia-lumia-920-slate/45...
Metrop0218 14y ago
The core operating system swap. Taking a desktop operating system and shrinking it down to run on a phone is no easy task. In fact, it's a gargantuan undertaking. Add a bunch of new end user features and you get that the amount of technical work that is going into WP8 is phenomenal. However, the windows phone engineering team is superb. I have no doubt's that both consumers and developers will be thoroughly impressed come holiday season.
- peonies 14y ago
  Taking a desktop operating system and shrinking it down to run on a phone is no easy task. In fact, it's a gargantuan undertaking. iOS is a shrunken version of OSX, while Android is a barely shrunken version of Linux. Aren't all modern mobile platforms shrunken versions of desktop operating systems?
  - cdh 14y ago
    Who is to say those weren't gargantuan undertakings as well? The relationship between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 is closer than that, though. My understanding is that both will make calls to the same WinRT APIs, meaning a significant amount of code (and the XAML defining the UI) can be shared between both platforms. That's a very different relationship than Mac OS has with iOS (where the UI differences are significant) or Android has with Linux (where there is almost nothing in common between X and Android's UI).
  - fpgeek 14y ago
    Shrunken or cherry-picked? There's a pretty big difference in development effort between the two.
- ashayh 14y ago
  It is a very difficult task, but made easier by the fact that mobile CPUs/GPUs have improved greatly in the past few years.
ladzoppelin 14y ago
Its crazy that Windows 8 runs better then Windows 7 on the same computer. I love it. Would love to try the Win8 phone is they ever get one released.

41 points by czr80 14y ago

Essentially ... "Whatever the cause of the delays—whether they're because Microsoft has bitten off more than it can chew with the kernel transition, or due to some other reason—the situation is now growing critical. It's not just that it's annoying developers; the delays are undoubtedly hurting Redmond's hardware partners."

mtgx 14y ago
I wonder if the Windows 8 kernel will also hurt Microsoft's chances for ever competing on the mass market. So far all of the announced WP8 phones are using hardware like Qualcomm's latest gen S4 chip, which could be a way for them to streamline the launch process, but it could also be a performance issue with WP8 (based on Windows 8 kernel), which I doubt is as lean and nimble as WP7 (based on Windows Embedded).
- jinushaun 14y ago
  It has always been my theory that WP7 hardware can't suitably run WP8 OS with good performance, which is why WP7 phones aren't being upgraded to WP8.
- SlipperySlope 14y ago
  I expect that the Windows 8 kernel will run great on the Intel mobile parts, should the latter become widely adopted.
- jerlam 14y ago
  Well, targeting current high-end hardware (and tomorrow's merely average hardware) may be a better strategy than Microsoft's attempt with WP Tango, which targeted low-end hardware on a platform that was already behind the competition. I would assume that Microsoft is smart enough to avoid pushing two separate ecosystems (WP7 and WP8) since they don't have a real foothold with one.

freehunter 14y ago

As a user of WP7 who is looking forward to WP8, I really really want to give them the benefit of the doubt that there is a major ace up their sleeve they can't talk about for competitive reasons. Something like Nintendo announcing the Wii remote early enough for Sony to quickly switch to motion-sensing controllers as well. Something huge and disruptive that is so critical to their success that none of their competitors can know in time to ape. I can't recall a single time Microsoft has ever done that, though...

ams6110 14y ago
Kinect?
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  I'm sure I had a video of the "Kinect" concept (from Microsoft Research) from 4 or 5 years ago! I could be mistaken, but I think they released a lot of "concept" videos like that through out the years, and then released the actual device.
joenathan 14y ago
Direct X and a shared kernel with Windows 8 proper is already pretty big IMO. I have a Nexus S(Running JB) and I'm going to be giving WP8 a serious look when it comes time to upgrade.
- mtgx 14y ago
  So far only "Angry Birds" type games have been announced as "Xbox Games" for Windows 8/RT.
  - joenathan 14y ago
    It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. When developers make Xbox games(Xbox uses Direct X), and Windows games(again Direct X), it will be trivial for them to also target WP8/WinRT.
14y ago

randallu 14y ago

So they ended up doing (what sounds like, or may as well be) a complete rewrite and it's taking them much longer than they expected? Shocker! It sounds like they're running the WP7 apps in a compatibility box. Is that right? One issue developing for Android is the huge API sprawl. Android has this immense surface area of public API now, and they only add new methods and classes every release (I'd love to know how the framework engineers on Android feel about this, because it certainly detracts from the app development experience...). So a compatibility box sounds like a good idea in that case, though making everyone rewrite their apps isn't a good idea...

SlipperySlope 14y ago
In order to use WP8-specific features, developers will need to use a new development model. This is more friction for developers when compared to using comparable new features in iOS or Android, where the development model is unchanged, but new APIs are utilized. One can only imagine the sorts of bureaucratic infighting within Microsoft as various development tool factions seek to discard the work of factions falling out of favor. In contrast consider how long Apple stuck by Objective-C as its chief development framework.
- xradionut 14y ago
  > "In order to use WP8-specific features, developers will need to use a new development model. " It's not only the WP8 model. Windows 8 has changed, Server 2012 has changed, and so on... I have so many new keys and downloads available at MSDN, I have to take time to plan what I want to load into a vitual machine and start testing against.
- ams6110 14y ago
  Apple hasn't really consistenly stuck by Objective-C; they tried to push people in the Java direction for OS X "Cocoa" development maybe about 10 years ago. Never really caught on, though.
  - randallu 14y ago

sounds 14y ago

If there's one thing Apple has executed on, it's the synthesis of hardware and software. That's an often overlooked key to a successful customer experience. Android has some decent hardware - Galaxy S III apparently but I haven't tried it yet - but unless you luck out and a carrier throws you an Ice Cream Sandwich or Jelly Bean, what's the point? Microsoft knows they need something, but if they don't have some pretty awesome software they'll be in the same place Android is. (Sans patent lawsuits)

SlipperySlope 14y ago
Microsoft has been crushed by Android in mobile. From a once dominating position, Microsoft phone OS's now get lumped in the 'other' category when market share pie charts are illustrated. Despite patent licensing fees, Google's Android is free to use - or to fork as was done by Amazon. This is a resounding win for Linux. On the other hand Apple effectively gives away iOS when you buy or upgrade one of their mobile products. What niche is left for Microsoft - even if they do create some pretty awesome software?
- sounds 14y ago
  Oh I wouldn't write Microsoft off entirely yet. Nokia is probably a dodo at this point, but it would be a bit hasty to forget Microsoft's $60 billion in cash [1] I do think Microsoft is trying to apply PC-era tactics to embedded devices. It's like they're chatting up that hot girl who, it turns out, is a ninja assassin on a psycho killing spree. The only thing the embedded world produces with any regularity is bankrupt companies; what I'm saying is, companies like HTC and Samsung are used to an intensity that Nokia may never figure out. Microsoft is capable of surviving in the embedded world, but they probably won't "wake up" for another year at least. [1] http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=msft http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=msft
  - SlipperySlope 14y ago
    Agree that technically mobile is embedded, but mobile is more popularly considered a separate market from embedded. For example, while a phone and a washing machine may have the same sort of CPU, most engineers consider these separate markets. Do you think that Steve Ballmer will be the one that wakes up, or does the board find a new chief executive?

kia 14y ago

But what was a little surprising is that there were no handsets for the press to play with. There were some demonstration units carefully attended by PR personnel, and while we were able to get kind of close to them, the general rule was "you can look but you can't touch." Looking at this [1] video I would say that this article is just another BS from Ars. [1] http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/nokia-lumia-920-slate/4505-6452_7-35437152.html http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/nokia-lumia-920-slate/45...

Metrop0218 14y ago

The core operating system swap. Taking a desktop operating system and shrinking it down to run on a phone is no easy task. In fact, it's a gargantuan undertaking. Add a bunch of new end user features and you get that the amount of technical work that is going into WP8 is phenomenal. However, the windows phone engineering team is superb. I have no doubt's that both consumers and developers will be thoroughly impressed come holiday season.

peonies 14y ago
Taking a desktop operating system and shrinking it down to run on a phone is no easy task. In fact, it's a gargantuan undertaking. iOS is a shrunken version of OSX, while Android is a barely shrunken version of Linux. Aren't all modern mobile platforms shrunken versions of desktop operating systems?
- cdh 14y ago
  Who is to say those weren't gargantuan undertakings as well? The relationship between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 is closer than that, though. My understanding is that both will make calls to the same WinRT APIs, meaning a significant amount of code (and the XAML defining the UI) can be shared between both platforms. That's a very different relationship than Mac OS has with iOS (where the UI differences are significant) or Android has with Linux (where there is almost nothing in common between X and Android's UI).
- fpgeek 14y ago
  Shrunken or cherry-picked? There's a pretty big difference in development effort between the two.
ashayh 14y ago
It is a very difficult task, but made easier by the fact that mobile CPUs/GPUs have improved greatly in the past few years.

ladzoppelin 14y ago

Its crazy that Windows 8 runs better then Windows 7 on the same computer. I love it. Would love to try the Win8 phone is they ever get one released.