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> In some ways, the Framework Desktop is a curious machine. Desktop PCs are already very user-repairable! So why is Framework even bringing their talents to thi

• sethops1 1y ago
  The RAM is soldered on all Halo Strix platforms because physics is getting in the way. With pluggable DIMMs the memory bandwidth would be halved, at best.
  • wishinghand 1y ago
    Why is that? Why would soldering the connections vs plugging them in affect how much data per second they transfer?
    • tejtm 1y ago
      mind the gap
    • colejohnson66 1y ago
      Sockets have resistance and crosstalk, which affects signal integrity.
      • aeonik 1y ago
        Wait, your telling me, I should have been desoldering the sockets off my motherboard, and directly soldering my RAM to the leads this entire time?
        • ElectricalUnion 1y ago
          Compression Attached Memory Module (CAMM) tries to be a middle-term solution for that, by reducing how crappy your average RAM socket is to latency and signal integrity issues. But, at this point, I can see CAMM delivered memory being reduced to a sort of slower, "CXL.mem" device.
          • aeonik 1y ago
            Seriously though, Would desoldering the sockets help? Why are the sockets bad?
            • komali2 1y ago
              As stated previously, the sockets reduce signal integrity, which doesn't necessarily make them "bad," but is why Framework wasn't able to used socketed ram to maximize the potential of this CPU. This sort-of-interview of Nirav Patel (ceo of framework) explains in a bit more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lErGZZgUbY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lErGZZgUbY Basically, they need to use LPDDR5X memory, which isn't available in socketed form, because of signal integrity reasons. Which means you won't see an improvement if you solder your ram directly, I think mostly because your home soldering job will suffer signal integrity issues, but also because your RAM isn't LPCAMM and isn't spread across a 256 bit bus.
              • aeonik 1y ago
                They "why" hasn't been answered. I understand the previous statements very clearly. It makes intuitive sense to me, but I want to know more. Like physics PhD-level more.
                • 418tpot 1y ago
                  I believe the reason is, at the frequencies these CPUs are talking to RAM, the reflection coefficient[1] starts playing a big role. This means any change in impedance in the wire cause reflections of the signal. This is also the reasoning why you can't just have a dumb female to female HDMI coupling and expect video to work. All of such devices are active and read the stream on the input and relay them on the output. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_coefficient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_coefficient
  • onli 1y ago
    He is still right. It is a desktop PC that is less repairable than all other desktop PCs, from a brand that is known to champion repairability. They had a reason for it, but could've chosen to not create more throwaway things.
    • trenchpilgrim 1y ago
      The 128GB version wouldn't be throwaway, since that's the maximum the platform as a whole supports anyway- more memory than that would require a new mainboard and CPU at the same time.
      • nemomarx 1y ago
        Not for upgrade reasons but what if you have a fault in one of the dimms or etc? Now you can't just drop in a replacement without changing everything.
        • cyanydeez 1y ago
          it's basically the same as asking what happens when your M4 Apple has a fault. It's soldered based on the desire to use the ram as part of the GPU. Without that, it's really not a interesting solution. demanding replaceable ram means also not wanting the benefits of the integrated memory
        • rs186 1y ago
          I wonder why so few people ask Apple products of such questions -- "what if my SSD goes bad, does it mean my computer is now completely useless?"
          • nemomarx 1y ago
            I would also ask this! But part of the framework brand was selling a laptop where the answer to that question was being able to replace it on your own. So it's just kind of a contrast for their desktop to be less repairable than their laptop. Personally I think it's bad that apple products are so poorly repairable and so expensive to upgrade.
  • beeflet 1y ago
    Why not make a platform with a greater number of channels
    • aDyslecticCrow 1y ago
      That's a question for AMD and TCMC. They only have so much space on the silica. More memory channels means less of something else. This is not a "framework platform" issue, it's the specification of that CPU.
      • beeflet 1y ago
        Well they chose to use this hardware platform. It all sounds like market segmentation to me, now that AMD is on top.
        • wmf 1y ago
          To be clear, AMD is giving you 2x the bandwidth of competing chips and you're complaining that it isn't 4x.
          • beeflet 1y ago
            My complaints are the maximum RAM of the system and the modularity of the RAM. With an increased number of channels, you could have a greater amount of RAM at a lower frequency but at the same bandwidth. So you would at least be able to run some of these much larger AI models.
            • wmf 1y ago
              I don't think that would fit in a laptop which was the original market for this chip.
            • aDyslecticCrow 1y ago
              This isn't ram. this is unified memory. It's shared between GPU and CPU. Soldered VRAM for GPUs have been the norm for probably 20 years because of the latency and reliability required, so why is this any different? The only way to achieve what you're after is to do any of; - Give up on unified memory and switch to a traditional platform (which there are thousands of alternatives for) - Cripple the GPU for games and some productivity software by raising latency beyond the norm. - Change to a server-class chip for 5x the price. This is an amazing chip giving server-class specs in a cheap mobile platform, that fill a special nieche in the market for for both productivity and local AI at a very competitive price. What you're arguing for makes no sense.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • undersuit 1y ago
    I wonder if there were similar complaints when cache moved from motherboards to soldered on the cpu package.
    • beeflet 1y ago
      The difference in performance between DRAM and flash memory is far greater than SRAM and DRAM. The total RAM of a system is a hard limit on the type of programs you can practically run because swapping is slow.
      • undersuit 1y ago
        The old motherboard cache was socketed SRAM and it was replaced with soldered SRAM just as the socketed DRAM was replaced with soldered DRAM. L2 CPU cache used to be on the motherboard and user expandable.
  • Jtsummers 1y ago
    That's fine, but not what I was commenting on so your comment is mostly irrelevant. I was commenting on a brand based on repairability selling a product that's deliberately not repairable. It's a curious choice to throw away the branding that brought them to where they are, and hopefully not the start of a trend for their other devices.
    • rs186 1y ago
      The only non repairable part is RAM due to technical constraints. The rest is as repairable as any other desktop, if not more so (e.g. power supply). Why are you accusing them of "throwing away the branding" and holding such a purist view, when they are doing their best and just making compromises in order to release a decent product.
• antonvs 1y ago
  > And even more curious It's easy to find out the reason for this. And the article's benchmarks confirm the validity of this reason. Why comment from a place of ignorance, unless you're asking a question?
  • aniviacat 1y ago
    Your comment is unnecessarily hostile. There are plenty of components to choose from which do not need soldered-on RAM. Giving up modularity to gain access to higher memory bandwidth is certainly a trafeoff many are willing to make, but to take that tradeoff as a company known for modularity is, as the parent comment put it, curious.
    • antonvs 1y ago
      Every single description of the Framework desktop that I've seen has addressed this issue. To comment as though it's some sort of mystery is disingenuous at best. My comment was precisely as friendly as the commenter deserved. And as I said, if you read the article, you'll see that the tradeoff in question has paid off very well.
      • Jtsummers 1y ago
        You completely missed the point of my original comment, I'll take a second stab at it: 1. Framework branded themselves as the company for DIY computer repairability and maintainability in the laptop space. 2. They've now released a desktop that is less repairable than their laptops, and much less repairable than most desktops you can buy today. That's what I consider a curious move. The hardware choice may provide a good reason to solder on the RAM, but I wasn't commenting on that and have no idea how anyone could read my comment and have that be their takeaway. I was commenting on a brand throwing away the thing it's marketed itself for. In exchange for repairability, you now get shiny baubles like custom tiles for the case.
        • tomnipotent 1y ago
          > brand throwing away the thing it's marketed itself for I don't see what you see. It's a single product, not a realignment of their business model. They saw an opportunity and brought to market a product that will likely sell out, which tells us that customers are happy to make the trade-off of modularity and repairability for what the Strix Halo brings to the table. I think your interpretation of their mission is a bit uncharitable, maybe naive, and leaves the company little room to be a company.
• suspended_state 1y ago
  > They soldered on the RAM. Which makes it a very strange entry for a brand marketing itself as the DIY dream This was also my first thought when discovering this new model, but I think it was a pragmatic design decision. The questions you should ask yourself are: - which upgradable memory module format could be used with the same speed and bandwidth as the soldered in solution, - if this solution exists, how much would it cost - what's the maximum supported amount of ram for this CPU
  • beeflet 1y ago
    >which upgradable memory module format could be used with the same speed and bandwidth as the soldered in solution CAMM perhaps? The modular memory is important, because they are selling them to two different markets: gamers that want a small powerful desktop, and people running LLMs at home. The modularity of the RAM allows you to convert the former into the latter at a later date, so it seems pretty critical to me. For this reason alone, I am going to buy a used epyc server instead of one of these desktop things. I will be able to equip it with a greater amount of RAM as I see fit and run a greater range of models (albeit at lower speed). The ability to run larger models slowly at a later date is more important than the ability for me to run smaller models faster now. So I am an example of a consumer who does not like framework's tradeoff. You would think that they would at least offer some type of service where they take it into the factory and refit it with new ram chips. Perhaps they could just buy used low-ram boards at a later date and use them to make refurbished high-ram boards. Another solution is to make it so that it supports both soldered and unsoldered ram (but at a lower frequency). Gaming is frequency-limited but does not require much ram, but a lot of workloads like AI are bandwidth limited. Hell, if you're going to have some high-frequency RAM irreplacibly soldered to the motherboard, it might as well be a chiplet!
    • suspended_state 1y ago
      You should do what better fit your usecase. I don't know how large is framework's market, nor how deep their pockets are, which condition their ability to produce 2 different models. It's clear that a modular design is preferable, hopefully once a standard emerges they will use it in their next devices. Perhaps framework will help in that process, but I don't know if they can afford to put up with the initial costs, particularly in a market they don't have a strong foothold yet.
• trenchpilgrim 1y ago
  The CEO mentioned in an LTT video that they worked with AMD to try to make CAMM memory work and hit some technical problems.
• bluescrn 1y ago
  Gotta chase that AI bubble at any cost
• jeroenhd 1y ago
  According to the Framework CEO on the Linus Tech Tips video about this thing [1], they tried and AMD assigned an engineer on getting modular memory to work and decided it's not possible. Unless there's another company out there shipping this CPU with replaceable memory, I'll believe them. Even with LPCAMM, physics just doesn't work out. Of course, there are plenty of slower desktops you can buy where all the memory can be swapped out. If you want a repairable desktop like that, you're not stuck with Framework in the same way you would be with laptops. You'll probably struggle to get the same memory bandwidth to make full use of AMD's chips, though. [1]: https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=446 https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=446
  • cyanydeez 1y ago
    there isn't. This thing was designed the same way apple designed their unified memory. This thing is meant to work hand in hand with it's iGPU.
• tgma 1y ago
  Even on regular AMD 7000 and 9000 series the DDR5 memory controller is very sensitive and hard to get a stable system with fast RAM on many motherboards when all 4 modules are present. At today's RAM speeds, I definitely think a stable soldered system is increasingly a better trade-off.
  • SomeHacker44 1y ago
    Indeed. I have an AMD 9950X and an Asus X870E* motherboard. I can barely get the system to boot with one 32G DIMM let alone 2 or 4, and 48G DIMMS are even worse for some reason. I have tried 3 different "matched" sets. Sometimes I have to reset the system 3 times or more before it will boot; it hangs or crashes on DDR timing BIOS codes. I have given up and just use a single 32G despite how useless 32G is in a high end desktop today. Real joke. Huge waste of money. I will buy prebiilt systems in the future. In the meantime if I need a lot of RAM I use an Intel 14900K desktop or my new HP G1a Zbook. * ASUS X870E ROG CROSSHAIR HERO AMD AM5 ATX Motherboard
    • tgma 1y ago
      Yes, AM5 DDR5 support has been similarly painful to me on four systems (7950X and 9950X). Try forcing the memory speed down to 3600MHz (ouch) when you want to install lots of memory and stay on modules specified on the motherboard's QVL. I'd probably go Framework Desktop next if I won't need peripherals.
• sliken 1y ago
  Dunno, nice, quiet, small machine, using standard parts (power supply, motherboard, etc). If you want the high memory bandwidth get the strix halo, if not get any normal PC. Sure apple has the bandwidth as well, and also soldered memory as well. If you want dimms and you want the memory bandwidth get a threadripper (4 channel), siena (6 channel), thread ripper pro (8 channel), or Epyc (12 channel). But be prepared to double your power (at least), quadruple your space, double your cost, and still not have a decent GPU.
  • heraldgeezer 1y ago
    Nice is subjective. Fractal cases he compares to looks nicer to me. Quiet? A real PC with bigger fans = more airflow = quieter Smaller - yes, this is the tradeoff GPU is always best separate, that is true since the ages. "double the power" oh no from 100W to 200W wowwww "quadruple your space" - not a problem
• G3rn0ti 1y ago
  > They threw away their user-repairable mantra when they made the Desktop You forget the value proposition of Framework products is not only they allow you to bring your own hardware but they also promise to provide you with replacement parts and upgrades directly from the vendor. In this case they could not make the RAM replaceable (it’s a limitation of the platform) but you can expect an upgrade board in about 2 years that’s actually going to be easy to install for much less cost than buying a new desktop computer.
  • amaranth 1y ago
    That's less of a thing here since this is "just" an ITX motherboard, a case, and a power supply. With the laptops replacing the board saves a bunch of other parts but here the board is basically the only part that matters.