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I have two elementary school age boys, and one day I complained about someone who was vaping and they solemnly informed me that vaping was more deadly than smok

I have two elementary school age boys, and one day I complained about someone who was vaping and they solemnly informed me that vaping was more deadly than smoking. This is what they had learned in school; the anti-vaping hype was so aggressive that it had gone to the point and then right past it. If you're going to use a nicotine product, please vape. Also don't vape. But smoking is so much worse that they're not in the same league.

tornadofart 1y ago
Dose for dose, sure. OTOH vaping does tend to increase nicotine consumption because it doesn't taste as bad as the alternative, or so I have read...
- temp0826 1y ago
  It's complex, other compounds in tobacco do potentiate the effects but (as an ex-smoker, n=1) I never found even the high-octane gas station vapes to be as satisfying (felt like a completely different experience). And the taste is definitely subjective (I know people who say the dirtier the better)- I definitely prefer a good tobacco to any vape, flavored or unflavored. (Oh how I miss it sometimes...why do we love things that want to kill us?)
  - DaiPlusPlus 1y ago
    Pardon my asking, but how do cigars compare?
    - kimbernator 1y ago
      I'm not who you asked, but it's not typically comparable since you don't traditionally inhale cigar smoke and therefore don't usually absorb nearly as much nicotine.
    - temp0826 1y ago
      Cigars can be great sure. As the sibling comment mentioned you typically aren't supposed to inhale the smoke- however I think being that they're unfiltered and a lot bigger, you can still absorb a lot of nicotine/etc through your mouth. Probably just as much (or higher) risk of mouth/throat cancers. I've worked at traditional ayahuasca retreats and a lot of "mapacho" (a South American style of tobacco, unprocessed but from a MUCH stronger species of tobacco, Nicotiana rustica, something like 10-20x as much nicotine as Virginia tobacco) is smoked in ceremonies, but not inhaled. You can still get a heck of a buzz from it.
      - DaiPlusPlus 1y ago
        I should have clarified: I meant I was wondering how cigars compare to vaping when one is just looking “for flavour” - not for nicotine, sorry.
        temp0826 1y ago
        Not sure I totally get it but I think it's pretty subjective, some people really loathe tobacco smoke. I'd personally never go out of my way to use a vape just for flavor (but I've never really liked flavors anyways and only went unflavored when I did it). To each their own shrug . It does suck that smoke sticks to everything and makes you reek.
- andrewla 1y ago
  My understanding of cigarettes is that while nicotine is responsible for the addictive effects of tobacco, it is a very minor contributor to the overall health impact of smoking, which are mostly the other tobacco ingredients, primarily particulates. So while you may consume more nicotine, which has some deleterious effects, the overall risk is literally orders of magnitude lower. You'd need to consume 100s of vapes to get enough nicotine to have health risks on par with what you get from a cigarette.
darth_avocado 1y ago
If you vaped the same amount as a cigarette then yes. Unfortunately vapes get you to vape way more. On top of that Social norms around cigarettes create barriers for smoking that don’t exist for vaping. Somehow smoking a cigarette indoors is extremely frowned upon but you could be sitting on a couch vaping all day and no one will bat an eye. The fact that you have to physically go outside to smoke is a sufficient enough barrier to reduce consumption.
- extraduder_ire 1y ago
  At least where I am, vaping indoors is exactly as illegal as smoking indoors. Though, amending the law to include vaping took years.
  - moron4hire 1y ago
    They gotta catch you, first.
  - pseudocomposer 1y ago
    I’m pretty sure it’s not illegal to vape on your couch, and again, there’s also not really a social stigma about it, nor a good way to detect it as compared to cigarettes.
- andrewla 1y ago
  I don't think this is even remotely true. It is literally an order of magnitude question. Don't vape! But your risk of lung cancer / emphysema is close to nil with vapes. Other risks related to nicotine exposure are of course present, as are the risk of tainted vapes or bad ingredients, but they're really not in the same ballpark.
prophesi 1y ago
I will also add to the discussion that disposable vapes (in the USA) tend to be outrageously high in their nicotine content. If you buy the juice yourself you have options to choose much lower nicotine per volume compared to these disposables (and will be a lot cheaper in the mid-term/long-term). A lot of devices these days curb the issue of replacing your own coils too, as that used to be a common issue. But please don't start vaping if you don't already smoke. There's also the discussion of tobacco-less nicotine pouches that have hit the scene; on average they have higher nicotine content than regular tobacco pouches. And the same issue applies, as it's also acceptable to partake of them anywhere at anytime.
- kimbernator 1y ago
  What's the common understanding of nicotine these days? I haven't thought about this much since the early e-cigarette days around 2011, but back then the common discourse was that 1. It's really hard to measure nicotine in a cigarette in a comparable unit to vaping due to the difference in how they are consumed, and 2. Nicotine itself isn't particularly harmful, and its addictiveness is dramatically accelerated by the other things in cigarettes. Anecdotally, I vaped (at what might be considered a high amount of nicotine) for years and basically just decided it wasn't for me one day and stopped without any drama. Given that vaping has come a long way since then I'm certain there is a more modern understanding of these things.
  - prophesi 1y ago
    If you started in 2011, then you likely had freebase nicotine that maxed out at 20mg/ml before being too harsh for people to vape. It was around 4 or 5 years later that nicotine salts began being used due to how smooth the hit can be, and those can reach +70mg/ml now. There's not really a motive to keep low nicotine disposable vapes in gas stations and the like. edit: And yeah, this is all anecdotal for me. No clue how much nicotine you actually intake via these methods.
    - noahjk 1y ago
      I remember when 20 used to be considered high, and 5mg/ml was probably the most popular (or 3/6 depending who you got it from). Vaping back then largely felt like a fun hobby and was probably at its peak 'healthiness' and 'environmentalness'. Lots of people were happy to give up cigarettes for vaping (or at least try). Towards the end of that, there started to be hints of legislation restricting the sale of juices, which made things a bit more complicated for consumers. Then Juuls became popular, featuring higher nicotine content and almost invisible vapor, and nothing was ever the same.
kimbernator 1y ago
I can't stand that this thought has permeated as much as it has. The magnitude is entirely different, and when I try to make that point I'm always seen as pro-vaping. The fact that barely any kids are smoking is a bigger deal than the fact that more of them are vaping. The vaping is still a problem, but it's a huge success that we've come so far from the problem it replaced.
unparagoned 1y ago
In some aspects it might be worse. Temperatures are much higher which have their own risks. Plus you have the danger relating to the chemicals in akin to popcorn lung.

tornadofart 1y ago

Dose for dose, sure. OTOH vaping does tend to increase nicotine consumption because it doesn't taste as bad as the alternative, or so I have read...

temp0826 1y ago
It's complex, other compounds in tobacco do potentiate the effects but (as an ex-smoker, n=1) I never found even the high-octane gas station vapes to be as satisfying (felt like a completely different experience). And the taste is definitely subjective (I know people who say the dirtier the better)- I definitely prefer a good tobacco to any vape, flavored or unflavored. (Oh how I miss it sometimes...why do we love things that want to kill us?)
- DaiPlusPlus 1y ago
  Pardon my asking, but how do cigars compare?
  - kimbernator 1y ago
    I'm not who you asked, but it's not typically comparable since you don't traditionally inhale cigar smoke and therefore don't usually absorb nearly as much nicotine.
  - temp0826 1y ago
    Cigars can be great sure. As the sibling comment mentioned you typically aren't supposed to inhale the smoke- however I think being that they're unfiltered and a lot bigger, you can still absorb a lot of nicotine/etc through your mouth. Probably just as much (or higher) risk of mouth/throat cancers. I've worked at traditional ayahuasca retreats and a lot of "mapacho" (a South American style of tobacco, unprocessed but from a MUCH stronger species of tobacco, Nicotiana rustica, something like 10-20x as much nicotine as Virginia tobacco) is smoked in ceremonies, but not inhaled. You can still get a heck of a buzz from it.
    - DaiPlusPlus 1y ago
      I should have clarified: I meant I was wondering how cigars compare to vaping when one is just looking “for flavour” - not for nicotine, sorry.
      - temp0826 1y ago
        Not sure I totally get it but I think it's pretty subjective, some people really loathe tobacco smoke. I'd personally never go out of my way to use a vape just for flavor (but I've never really liked flavors anyways and only went unflavored when I did it). To each their own shrug . It does suck that smoke sticks to everything and makes you reek.
andrewla 1y ago
My understanding of cigarettes is that while nicotine is responsible for the addictive effects of tobacco, it is a very minor contributor to the overall health impact of smoking, which are mostly the other tobacco ingredients, primarily particulates. So while you may consume more nicotine, which has some deleterious effects, the overall risk is literally orders of magnitude lower. You'd need to consume 100s of vapes to get enough nicotine to have health risks on par with what you get from a cigarette.

darth_avocado 1y ago

If you vaped the same amount as a cigarette then yes. Unfortunately vapes get you to vape way more. On top of that Social norms around cigarettes create barriers for smoking that don’t exist for vaping. Somehow smoking a cigarette indoors is extremely frowned upon but you could be sitting on a couch vaping all day and no one will bat an eye. The fact that you have to physically go outside to smoke is a sufficient enough barrier to reduce consumption.

extraduder_ire 1y ago
At least where I am, vaping indoors is exactly as illegal as smoking indoors. Though, amending the law to include vaping took years.
- moron4hire 1y ago
  They gotta catch you, first.
- pseudocomposer 1y ago
  I’m pretty sure it’s not illegal to vape on your couch, and again, there’s also not really a social stigma about it, nor a good way to detect it as compared to cigarettes.
andrewla 1y ago
I don't think this is even remotely true. It is literally an order of magnitude question. Don't vape! But your risk of lung cancer / emphysema is close to nil with vapes. Other risks related to nicotine exposure are of course present, as are the risk of tainted vapes or bad ingredients, but they're really not in the same ballpark.

prophesi 1y ago

I will also add to the discussion that disposable vapes (in the USA) tend to be outrageously high in their nicotine content. If you buy the juice yourself you have options to choose much lower nicotine per volume compared to these disposables (and will be a lot cheaper in the mid-term/long-term). A lot of devices these days curb the issue of replacing your own coils too, as that used to be a common issue. But please don't start vaping if you don't already smoke. There's also the discussion of tobacco-less nicotine pouches that have hit the scene; on average they have higher nicotine content than regular tobacco pouches. And the same issue applies, as it's also acceptable to partake of them anywhere at anytime.

kimbernator 1y ago
What's the common understanding of nicotine these days? I haven't thought about this much since the early e-cigarette days around 2011, but back then the common discourse was that 1. It's really hard to measure nicotine in a cigarette in a comparable unit to vaping due to the difference in how they are consumed, and 2. Nicotine itself isn't particularly harmful, and its addictiveness is dramatically accelerated by the other things in cigarettes. Anecdotally, I vaped (at what might be considered a high amount of nicotine) for years and basically just decided it wasn't for me one day and stopped without any drama. Given that vaping has come a long way since then I'm certain there is a more modern understanding of these things.
- prophesi 1y ago
  If you started in 2011, then you likely had freebase nicotine that maxed out at 20mg/ml before being too harsh for people to vape. It was around 4 or 5 years later that nicotine salts began being used due to how smooth the hit can be, and those can reach +70mg/ml now. There's not really a motive to keep low nicotine disposable vapes in gas stations and the like. edit: And yeah, this is all anecdotal for me. No clue how much nicotine you actually intake via these methods.
  - noahjk 1y ago
    I remember when 20 used to be considered high, and 5mg/ml was probably the most popular (or 3/6 depending who you got it from). Vaping back then largely felt like a fun hobby and was probably at its peak 'healthiness' and 'environmentalness'. Lots of people were happy to give up cigarettes for vaping (or at least try). Towards the end of that, there started to be hints of legislation restricting the sale of juices, which made things a bit more complicated for consumers. Then Juuls became popular, featuring higher nicotine content and almost invisible vapor, and nothing was ever the same.

kimbernator 1y ago

I can't stand that this thought has permeated as much as it has. The magnitude is entirely different, and when I try to make that point I'm always seen as pro-vaping. The fact that barely any kids are smoking is a bigger deal than the fact that more of them are vaping. The vaping is still a problem, but it's a huge success that we've come so far from the problem it replaced.

unparagoned 1y ago

In some aspects it might be worse. Temperatures are much higher which have their own risks. Plus you have the danger relating to the chemicals in akin to popcorn lung.