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>Python devs at HRT really know their stuff. Its a finance firm - i.e scam firm. "We have a fancy trading algorithm that statistically is never going to outper
by ActorNightly 1y ago
>Python devs at HRT really know their stuff.
Its a finance firm - i.e scam firm. "We have a fancy trading algorithm that statistically is never going to outperform just buying VOO and holding it, but the thing is if you get lucky, it could".
Scammers are not tech people. And its pretty from their post.
> In Python, imports occur at runtime. For each imported name, the interpreter must find, load, and evaluate the contents of a corresponding module. This process gets dramatically slower for large modules, modules on distributed file systems, modules with slow side-effects (code that runs during evaluation), modules with many transitive imports, and C/C++ extension modules with many library dependencies.
As they should.
The idea that when you type something in the code and then the interpreter just doesn't execute it is how you end up with Java like services, where you have dependency injection chains that are so massive that when the first time everything has to get lazily injected the code takes a massive amount of time to run. Then you have to go figure out where is the initialization code that slows everything down, and start figuring out how to modify your code to make that load first, which leads to a mess.
If your python module takes a long time to load, this is a module problem. There is a reason why you can import submodules of modules directly, and overall the __init__.py in the module shouldn't import all the submodules by default. Structure your modules so they don't do massive initialization routines and problem solved.
Furthermore, because of pythons dynamic nature, you can do run time imports, including imports in functions. In use, whether you import something up at the top and it gets lazily loaded or you import something right when you have to use it has absolutely no difference other than code syntax, and the latter is actually better because you can see what is going on rather than the lazy loading being hidden away in the interpreter.
Or if you really care, you can implement lazy work process inside the modules, so when you import them and use them the first time it works exactly like lazy imports.
To basically spend time building a new interpreter with lazy loading just to be able to have all your import statements up at the top just screams that those devs prefer ideology over practicality.
- mhh__ 1y ago> "We have a fancy trading algorithm that statistically is never going to outperform just buying VOO and holding it, but the thing is if you get lucky, it could". You wish lol. How do you think they pay for all the developers? Firms like HRT don't even take outsider money, they don't really need to. And besides, we don't get paid for beating stocks, a lot of funds will do worse than equities in a good year for the latter, the whole point is that you're benchmarked to the risk free rate because your skill is in making money while being overall market neutral. So you rarely take a drawdown anywhere near as badly as equities. As a service this is often a portfolio diversification tool for large allocators rather than something they put all the money into. It is true however that some firms are basically just rubbish beta vehicles that probably should in an ideal world shut down.
- ActorNightly 1y agoI don't know what you define as outsider money, but the fact is that they are a market maker, and you are never going to make large amounts of money on arbitrage by itself.
- mhh__ 1y agoTwo business models: Good returns - take other peoples money, trade it, take 20% of profits Excellent returns - trade your own money, make a bit less overall but keep 100% of profits
- ActorNightly 1y agoIf the first case, whats the incentive for users to trade with you In the second case, why start a company?
- mhh__ 1y agoNot sure what you mean Prop shops usually come about as the partners buy out other investors in a fund
- ladberg 1y ago> Its a finance firm - i.e scam firm. "We have a fancy trading algorithm that statistically is never going to outperform just buying VOO and holding it, but the thing is if you get lucky, it could". HRT trades their own money so if it didn't beat VOO then they'd just buy VOO. There are no external investors to scam.
- cjj_swe 1y ago[flagged]
- ActorNightly 1y ago[flagged]
- tomhow 1y agoWhen disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Please don't post shallow dismissals... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Danjoe4 1y agoRuntime imports are a maintenance nightmare and can quickly fragment a codebase. Static analysis of imports is so desirable that it is almost always worth the initialization performance hit. Tradeoffs.
- ActorNightly 1y ago>Runtime imports are a maintenance nightmare and can quickly fragment a codebase I agree, which is why you should design your modules correctly and import only the stuff you need. I was pointing out that lazy imports vs runtime imports in functions are basically the same and lead to the same issues.
- 82716f12 1y ago> I agree, which is why you should design your modules correctly and import only the stuff you need. How do you achieve this without making gazillions of modules, where each module has just a few stuff? Are you saying just use local import everywhere?
- ActorNightly 1y agoYou can have one module with all the capability, but the capability is separated into submodules. And the __init__.py of the module doesn't auto import the submodules So when you do this import bigmodule It doesn't do anything functionality, and you may only have some small top level things available for you, like bigmodule.config, or bigmodule.logging. Then, you have your big initializer code in bigmodule.financedata. But the stuff you need for running scripts is in bigmodule.scripts. So when you write from bigmodule import financedata This code will take a while. But if you write from bigmodule import scripts This will load fast. You don't need to have gazillion modules, just good organization. Also, in general, its a good practice to gate intensive compute/network operations behind an explicit function you need to call. Also thank you for focusing the convo on the tech stuff instead of repeating finance bro myths
- 1y ago
- 82716f12 1y ago> "We have a fancy trading algorithm that statistically is never going to outperform just buying VOO and holding it, but the thing is if you get lucky, it could". How they make $8B/y underperforming VOO? Reference: https://www.businessinsider.com/hudson-river-trading-hrt-8-billion-trading-revenue-2025-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/hudson-river-trading-hrt-8-b...
- ActorNightly 1y agoMan from all these responses, so many people are unaware of the finance world, lol. Or just bots posting for HRT In case you are unaware - very single trading firm makes money on fees, not by outperforming the market. This goes for firms like Vanguard too. Just think about it for a little bit - if you could reliably outperform the market by any % with an algorithm why even start a company? Just take out loans, invest, make money, repeat and become rich. No expenses to manage a company.
- Redoubts 1y ago> Because every single trading firm makes money on fees I really want to know what you think this company does, precisely
- ActorNightly 1y agoI can't tell if people don't understand how financial firms work or are you just being sarcastic. If a company has customers, and those customers buy a product, the company charges a price for that product.
- Redoubts 1y ago> If a company has customers They don't...
- ActorNightly 1y agoa) What do you call this at the bottom of the page https://www.hudsonrivertrading.com/liquidity/ https://www.hudsonrivertrading.com/liquidity/ b) If you don't have customers, why have a company?
- idohft 1y ago> Its a finance firm - i.e scam firm. "We have a fancy trading algorithm that statistically is never going to outperform just buying VOO and holding it, but the thing is if you get lucky, it could". > Scammers are not tech people. And its pretty from their post. It would be great if you included any sort of evidence or argument. Reading on to the other comments, it looks like you're throwing out a lot of accusations and claims. I don't know what you think you know, but from the looks of it, you don't really know HRT's business. I don't really these days, but I knew it years ago, and it's not from taking client money or arbitrage or some weird scam. It's not magic but the world of algo trading isn't a ponzi scheme.
- mgaunard 1y agoProp trading firms usually have returns higher than 25%, which is way higher than holding the S&P. You're confusing prop shops and hedge funds.