5 ms·

I feel like this is low on details. I despise social media comments as HN submissions. What actually happened here?

by tyleo 1y ago

paul-tharun 1y ago
MXRoute has been trying from ages to get push notifications on the IOS mail app but were getting ignored. FastMail got access to it and it is not clear how, without any public announcement or documentation. It is as if Apple just picked a favorite and went with it.
- Weethet 1y ago
  FastMail is using JMAP, a protocol designed to support push notifications. MXRoute is stuck with SMTP/IMAP which don't support those. There might be a different reason, but I think this is probably the core issue here
  - admdly 1y ago
    I think saying they are stuck with standard email protocols is a bit of a stretch. JMAP is not widely implemented outside of Fastmail and certainly isn’t used by Apple Mail, which actually uses a proprietary IMAP extension (XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE).
  - jarland 1y ago
    The stock iOS Mail app does not support JMAP and therefore it has no relation to Push notifications for the stock iOS Mail app.
- spacedcowboy 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Weethet 1y ago
    For example a relatively modern email protocol: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8621.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8621.html
slau 1y ago
I kind of wrote about this: https://sebastian.lauwe.rs/blog/ios-migadu-notifications/ https://sebastian.lauwe.rs/blog/ios-migadu-notifications/ It’s more focused on how to get notifications to work with an email server that does not support XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE, but I also delve into how Apple abandoned the only reference implementation of XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
mpercival531 1y ago
iOS Mail app does not support IMAP IDLE like any ordinary email clients. It only supports a proprietary IMAP extension that uses Apple Push Notification Services (APNS) as a sideband channel for IMAP servers to signal the iOS Mail app. Last I researched this (like… years ago), most IMAP-based email providers that are listed by the iOS Settings have implemented the extension, except for Gmail and Exchange. Fastmail then got on the train since 2015. Not sure what is with the tweet targeting Fastmail specifically though.
- jeffbee 1y ago
  Ironically, Google does use APNS to support its own Gmail app on iOS, and for many other reasons. Just not for IMAP.
- admdly 1y ago
  Fastmail have been singled out as they appear to have been given special treatment in the form of an APNS topic ID. Other hosts have been using a reverse engineered endpoint to generate certificates, which has recently been closed. There’s some discussion on the Apple developer forums - https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671. The solution for the OP there seems to have been they also will get special treatment, but there remains no route for others to use to get the same.
fluidcruft 1y ago
Yeah I looked at the link and first reaction is there are no receipts and failure to produce receipts registers with me as adequately explained as a "skill issue" (via some sort of corollary to Hanlon's razor). My outrage meter is unmoved.
- admdly 1y ago
  There isn’t a skill issue at play here - it’s that Apple have closed the previously unofficial route others have been using (including MXRoute), which has brought the issue to a head. There’s some discussion on the Apple developer forums - https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671.
  - fluidcruft 1y ago
    That linked topic says Apple is working with the developer to handle it. I don't see any evidence of favoritism. Fastmail clearly reached out to Apple eons ago, which is evidence of skill on fastmail's part and not favortism on Apple's part. Admittedly, fastmail very likely has lots of contacts in Apple (Jeremy Howard isn't nobody), but that's also a skill issue.
    - admdly 1y ago
      Of the many email hosts out there, only a handful receiving special treatment with no route for others to even request the same is special treatment. In the case of Fastmail, they’ve had this access since 2015. It’s also very interesting that Apple reached out to the user in the developer forum thread after they raised it as an EU DMA issue.
      - fluidcruft 1y ago
        Why can't MXroute do exactly the same thing? Did they open a ticket?
        jarland 1y ago
nerdjon 1y ago
I am a bit confused here as well, is there a difference between "Push" and the notifications on iOS? I just checked my emails, I use Amazon Workmail and even that has push support. The only one for me that doesn't is my lesser used gmail. To my knowledge I get alerts quickly with that email, I have never had an issue of not.

I feel like this is low on details. I despise social media comments as HN submissions. What actually happened here?

by tyleo 1y ago

I feel like this is low on details. I despise social media comments as HN submissions. What actually happened here?

MXRoute has been trying from ages to get push notifications on the IOS mail app but were getting ignored. FastMail got access to it and it is not clear how, without any public announcement or documentation. It is as if Apple just picked a favorite and went with it.

Weethet 1y ago
FastMail is using JMAP, a protocol designed to support push notifications. MXRoute is stuck with SMTP/IMAP which don't support those. There might be a different reason, but I think this is probably the core issue here
- admdly 1y ago
  I think saying they are stuck with standard email protocols is a bit of a stretch. JMAP is not widely implemented outside of Fastmail and certainly isn’t used by Apple Mail, which actually uses a proprietary IMAP extension (XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE).
- jarland 1y ago
  The stock iOS Mail app does not support JMAP and therefore it has no relation to Push notifications for the stock iOS Mail app.
spacedcowboy 1y ago
[flagged]
- Weethet 1y ago
  For example a relatively modern email protocol: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8621.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8621.html

slau 1y ago

I kind of wrote about this: https://sebastian.lauwe.rs/blog/ios-migadu-notifications/ https://sebastian.lauwe.rs/blog/ios-migadu-notifications/ It’s more focused on how to get notifications to work with an email server that does not support XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE, but I also delve into how Apple abandoned the only reference implementation of XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

mpercival531 1y ago

iOS Mail app does not support IMAP IDLE like any ordinary email clients. It only supports a proprietary IMAP extension that uses Apple Push Notification Services (APNS) as a sideband channel for IMAP servers to signal the iOS Mail app. Last I researched this (like… years ago), most IMAP-based email providers that are listed by the iOS Settings have implemented the extension, except for Gmail and Exchange. Fastmail then got on the train since 2015. Not sure what is with the tweet targeting Fastmail specifically though.

jeffbee 1y ago
Ironically, Google does use APNS to support its own Gmail app on iOS, and for many other reasons. Just not for IMAP.
admdly 1y ago
Fastmail have been singled out as they appear to have been given special treatment in the form of an APNS topic ID. Other hosts have been using a reverse engineered endpoint to generate certificates, which has recently been closed. There’s some discussion on the Apple developer forums - https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671. The solution for the OP there seems to have been they also will get special treatment, but there remains no route for others to use to get the same.

fluidcruft 1y ago

Yeah I looked at the link and first reaction is there are no receipts and failure to produce receipts registers with me as adequately explained as a "skill issue" (via some sort of corollary to Hanlon's razor). My outrage meter is unmoved.

admdly 1y ago
There isn’t a skill issue at play here - it’s that Apple have closed the previously unofficial route others have been using (including MXRoute), which has brought the issue to a head. There’s some discussion on the Apple developer forums - https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671.
- fluidcruft 1y ago
  That linked topic says Apple is working with the developer to handle it. I don't see any evidence of favoritism. Fastmail clearly reached out to Apple eons ago, which is evidence of skill on fastmail's part and not favortism on Apple's part. Admittedly, fastmail very likely has lots of contacts in Apple (Jeremy Howard isn't nobody), but that's also a skill issue.
  - admdly 1y ago
    Of the many email hosts out there, only a handful receiving special treatment with no route for others to even request the same is special treatment. In the case of Fastmail, they’ve had this access since 2015. It’s also very interesting that Apple reached out to the user in the developer forum thread after they raised it as an EU DMA issue.
    - fluidcruft 1y ago
      Why can't MXroute do exactly the same thing? Did they open a ticket?
      - jarland 1y ago

nerdjon 1y ago

I am a bit confused here as well, is there a difference between "Push" and the notifications on iOS? I just checked my emails, I use Amazon Workmail and even that has push support. The only one for me that doesn't is my lesser used gmail. To my knowledge I get alerts quickly with that email, I have never had an issue of not.