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> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Probably the vast majority of consumers? There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical ke

> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Probably the vast majority of consumers? There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. The cars stolen in New Zealand are usually, as you say, cars that are known to be easy to enter and drive away. Even then, they break a window. But I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage.

alias_neo 1y ago
> I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage My next door neighbour had someone enter their home while they slept, take the key and drive off in their car, because it was "stolen to order" most likely. I couldn't give a shit if someone breaks in to my garage, or frankly if the car is stolen, but I don't want them coming into my house where my family is asleep for the keys. What happens if the keys weren't downstairs by the front door, because I left them on the bedside table or something? I shudder at the thought.
- 542354234235 1y ago
  I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying cars should be easier to steal so that no one ever breaks into your house to access the keys to your car?
  - alias_neo 1y ago
    Of course not, that's ridiculous. I simply don't drive a car anyone would want to steal.
- tekknik 1y ago
  Alarm and a gun in the home, problem solved.
cjrp 1y ago
> There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. Isn't the problem that it's designed to work from a distance, and that by boosting the signal the criminals can just increase the distance so that the key inside your house reaches the car? It seems inherently less secure than the old system where the physical key has to be practically touching the ignition to disable the immobiliser.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  You can boost signal only so much. Apple solved this to be less than a meter or smth like that. With Tesla you can disable keyless entry and use key card if you are so paranoid. But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me.
  - tekknik 1y ago
    > But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me. How so? Even if you know the location you need someone with jurisdiction to go get it. You disable vehicle, then it gets destroyed. EVs are entirely different designs than an ICE vehicle, and Tesla in particular is moving beyond the flawed CANBUS to something more robust and secure.
- Kirby64 1y ago
  More modern implementations of this use a time of flight check, so unless you have the ability to violate the laws of physics, boosting the signal so that a far away key transmits its signal to a nearby car is insufficient to unlock/start the car.
  - giobox 1y ago
    Are there many car keys actually using time of flight in the fob? Most of the cars I’ve owned use a much simpler approach - the key sleeps (stops broadcasting) unless moved. Drives me nuts with some fobs which have to be vigorously shaken to start broadcasting again and open my car etc. if key isn’t broadcasting, it can’t be mitm’d. It’s been awhile but I seem to recall time of flight being patent encumbered vs sleeping the key. This obviously isn’t 100 percent full proof but likely works well enough for preventing many common mitm scenarios such as stealing from a car park or drive way most of the time etc.

alias_neo 1y ago

> I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage My next door neighbour had someone enter their home while they slept, take the key and drive off in their car, because it was "stolen to order" most likely. I couldn't give a shit if someone breaks in to my garage, or frankly if the car is stolen, but I don't want them coming into my house where my family is asleep for the keys. What happens if the keys weren't downstairs by the front door, because I left them on the bedside table or something? I shudder at the thought.

542354234235 1y ago
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying cars should be easier to steal so that no one ever breaks into your house to access the keys to your car?
- alias_neo 1y ago
  Of course not, that's ridiculous. I simply don't drive a car anyone would want to steal.
tekknik 1y ago
Alarm and a gun in the home, problem solved.

cjrp 1y ago

> There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. Isn't the problem that it's designed to work from a distance, and that by boosting the signal the criminals can just increase the distance so that the key inside your house reaches the car? It seems inherently less secure than the old system where the physical key has to be practically touching the ignition to disable the immobiliser.

dzhiurgis 1y ago
You can boost signal only so much. Apple solved this to be less than a meter or smth like that. With Tesla you can disable keyless entry and use key card if you are so paranoid. But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me.
- tekknik 1y ago
  > But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me. How so? Even if you know the location you need someone with jurisdiction to go get it. You disable vehicle, then it gets destroyed. EVs are entirely different designs than an ICE vehicle, and Tesla in particular is moving beyond the flawed CANBUS to something more robust and secure.
Kirby64 1y ago
More modern implementations of this use a time of flight check, so unless you have the ability to violate the laws of physics, boosting the signal so that a far away key transmits its signal to a nearby car is insufficient to unlock/start the car.
- giobox 1y ago
  Are there many car keys actually using time of flight in the fob? Most of the cars I’ve owned use a much simpler approach - the key sleeps (stops broadcasting) unless moved. Drives me nuts with some fobs which have to be vigorously shaken to start broadcasting again and open my car etc. if key isn’t broadcasting, it can’t be mitm’d. It’s been awhile but I seem to recall time of flight being patent encumbered vs sleeping the key. This obviously isn’t 100 percent full proof but likely works well enough for preventing many common mitm scenarios such as stealing from a car park or drive way most of the time etc.