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> One could also argue that criminals being able to steal parked cars is safer over all for society as they then don't feel the need to car jack you while you a

> One could also argue that criminals being able to steal parked cars is safer over all for society as they then don't feel the need to car jack you while you are actually in the vehicle. Here in the UK vehicle theft reached an all time low in 2014. It’s doubled since then. If there was an increase in car jacking it must have been minescule by comparison. It’s not really a crime that happens here. I had an old beater van that got stolen. It turned out that model was known to be easy to steal. I suspect most car theft is done because it’s easy and fairly low risk. Walk up to a car in the night, fiddle around for a few minutes and drive off. I still drive a car with a key. It’s completely fine. Who actually asked for keyless entry?

teruakohatu 1y ago
> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Probably the vast majority of consumers? There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. The cars stolen in New Zealand are usually, as you say, cars that are known to be easy to enter and drive away. Even then, they break a window. But I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage.
- alias_neo 1y ago
  > I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage My next door neighbour had someone enter their home while they slept, take the key and drive off in their car, because it was "stolen to order" most likely. I couldn't give a shit if someone breaks in to my garage, or frankly if the car is stolen, but I don't want them coming into my house where my family is asleep for the keys. What happens if the keys weren't downstairs by the front door, because I left them on the bedside table or something? I shudder at the thought.
  - 542354234235 1y ago
    I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying cars should be easier to steal so that no one ever breaks into your house to access the keys to your car?
    - alias_neo 1y ago
      Of course not, that's ridiculous. I simply don't drive a car anyone would want to steal.
  - tekknik 1y ago
    Alarm and a gun in the home, problem solved.
- cjrp 1y ago
  > There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. Isn't the problem that it's designed to work from a distance, and that by boosting the signal the criminals can just increase the distance so that the key inside your house reaches the car? It seems inherently less secure than the old system where the physical key has to be practically touching the ignition to disable the immobiliser.
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    You can boost signal only so much. Apple solved this to be less than a meter or smth like that. With Tesla you can disable keyless entry and use key card if you are so paranoid. But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me.
    - tekknik 1y ago
      > But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me. How so? Even if you know the location you need someone with jurisdiction to go get it. You disable vehicle, then it gets destroyed. EVs are entirely different designs than an ICE vehicle, and Tesla in particular is moving beyond the flawed CANBUS to something more robust and secure.
  - Kirby64 1y ago
    More modern implementations of this use a time of flight check, so unless you have the ability to violate the laws of physics, boosting the signal so that a far away key transmits its signal to a nearby car is insufficient to unlock/start the car.
    - giobox 1y ago
      Are there many car keys actually using time of flight in the fob? Most of the cars I’ve owned use a much simpler approach - the key sleeps (stops broadcasting) unless moved. Drives me nuts with some fobs which have to be vigorously shaken to start broadcasting again and open my car etc. if key isn’t broadcasting, it can’t be mitm’d. It’s been awhile but I seem to recall time of flight being patent encumbered vs sleeping the key. This obviously isn’t 100 percent full proof but likely works well enough for preventing many common mitm scenarios such as stealing from a car park or drive way most of the time etc.
ponector 1y ago
>> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Almost everyone? It's one of the best feature I have in a car, the most convenient one.
- calcifer 1y ago
  It's a feature we like now that we have it, but not one we asked for.
  - iwanttocomment 1y ago
    Hi! It me. I had a car with keyless entry years ago. It was great. I got another car, more recently, that had a physical key. I've hated having to use the physical key. I personally am asking for keyless entry. Sorry! Also: Hyundai/Kia cars have physical keys and are known to be trivially hot-wired. Given the "kia boyz" I'd have a hard time moving to physical keys again. Again, sorry!
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      Time to get flipper zero. Realistically there is not reason some Android maker couldn't roll a phone out with a keyless entry support (with or without OEM blessing heh)
      - ponector 1y ago
        If I can unlock my car with my Android's NFC and drive - is it a keyless entry? Is mentioned vulnerability affecting older/cheaper cars? I don't need to press any buttons on my key fob to enter the car and turn on the engine.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        If you need to pull out phone - it’s not really keyless
      - iwanttocomment 1y ago
kayodelycaon 1y ago
> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Me. I have problems with short-term memory and I kept forgetting my keys in the ignition. This isn’t due to laziness or lack of trying. It’s a hardware problem that makes developing or following habits in certain situations nearly impossible. It’s like asking a blind man to organize things by color. Now that I don’t have to take my keys out of my pocket, I’ve never left them in my car.
I_dream_of_Geni 1y ago
I LOVED my Chevy Volt!! Walk up to the car, door unlocks and I climb in. When leaving the car, shut the door, walk away, doors lock. I didn't ask for keyless entry, but I LOVE KEYLESS ENTRY!

teruakohatu 1y ago

> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Probably the vast majority of consumers? There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. The cars stolen in New Zealand are usually, as you say, cars that are known to be easy to enter and drive away. Even then, they break a window. But I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage.

alias_neo 1y ago
> I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage My next door neighbour had someone enter their home while they slept, take the key and drive off in their car, because it was "stolen to order" most likely. I couldn't give a shit if someone breaks in to my garage, or frankly if the car is stolen, but I don't want them coming into my house where my family is asleep for the keys. What happens if the keys weren't downstairs by the front door, because I left them on the bedside table or something? I shudder at the thought.
- 542354234235 1y ago
  I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying cars should be easier to steal so that no one ever breaks into your house to access the keys to your car?
  - alias_neo 1y ago
    Of course not, that's ridiculous. I simply don't drive a car anyone would want to steal.
- tekknik 1y ago
  Alarm and a gun in the home, problem solved.
cjrp 1y ago
> There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. Isn't the problem that it's designed to work from a distance, and that by boosting the signal the criminals can just increase the distance so that the key inside your house reaches the car? It seems inherently less secure than the old system where the physical key has to be practically touching the ignition to disable the immobiliser.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  You can boost signal only so much. Apple solved this to be less than a meter or smth like that. With Tesla you can disable keyless entry and use key card if you are so paranoid. But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me.
  - tekknik 1y ago
    > But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me. How so? Even if you know the location you need someone with jurisdiction to go get it. You disable vehicle, then it gets destroyed. EVs are entirely different designs than an ICE vehicle, and Tesla in particular is moving beyond the flawed CANBUS to something more robust and secure.
- Kirby64 1y ago
  More modern implementations of this use a time of flight check, so unless you have the ability to violate the laws of physics, boosting the signal so that a far away key transmits its signal to a nearby car is insufficient to unlock/start the car.
  - giobox 1y ago
    Are there many car keys actually using time of flight in the fob? Most of the cars I’ve owned use a much simpler approach - the key sleeps (stops broadcasting) unless moved. Drives me nuts with some fobs which have to be vigorously shaken to start broadcasting again and open my car etc. if key isn’t broadcasting, it can’t be mitm’d. It’s been awhile but I seem to recall time of flight being patent encumbered vs sleeping the key. This obviously isn’t 100 percent full proof but likely works well enough for preventing many common mitm scenarios such as stealing from a car park or drive way most of the time etc.

ponector 1y ago

>> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Almost everyone? It's one of the best feature I have in a car, the most convenient one.

calcifer 1y ago
It's a feature we like now that we have it, but not one we asked for.
- iwanttocomment 1y ago
  Hi! It me. I had a car with keyless entry years ago. It was great. I got another car, more recently, that had a physical key. I've hated having to use the physical key. I personally am asking for keyless entry. Sorry! Also: Hyundai/Kia cars have physical keys and are known to be trivially hot-wired. Given the "kia boyz" I'd have a hard time moving to physical keys again. Again, sorry!
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    Time to get flipper zero. Realistically there is not reason some Android maker couldn't roll a phone out with a keyless entry support (with or without OEM blessing heh)
    - ponector 1y ago
      If I can unlock my car with my Android's NFC and drive - is it a keyless entry? Is mentioned vulnerability affecting older/cheaper cars? I don't need to press any buttons on my key fob to enter the car and turn on the engine.
      - dzhiurgis 1y ago
        If you need to pull out phone - it’s not really keyless
    - iwanttocomment 1y ago

kayodelycaon 1y ago

> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Me. I have problems with short-term memory and I kept forgetting my keys in the ignition. This isn’t due to laziness or lack of trying. It’s a hardware problem that makes developing or following habits in certain situations nearly impossible. It’s like asking a blind man to organize things by color. Now that I don’t have to take my keys out of my pocket, I’ve never left them in my car.

I_dream_of_Geni 1y ago

I LOVED my Chevy Volt!! Walk up to the car, door unlocks and I climb in. When leaving the car, shut the door, walk away, doors lock. I didn't ask for keyless entry, but I LOVE KEYLESS ENTRY!