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I know this might be splitting hairs, but... >The old approach of keyfob to unlock the car and a real key for the ignition is safer. "Safe" feels like wrong w

I know this might be splitting hairs, but... >The old approach of keyfob to unlock the car and a real key for the ignition is safer. "Safe" feels like wrong word to use here. Safety is not same as security. One could also argue that criminals being able to steal parked cars is safer over all for society as they then don't feel the need to car jack you while you are actually in the vehicle. If you actually want to keep your car secure (meaning criminals wont break into it or steal it in this context) just drive old beater and do not leave anything valuable in the car or trunk. I am driving a car that is nearly as old as I am and its fighting a losing battle against rust and I have nothing more valuable than trash inside the car.

leoedin 1y ago
> One could also argue that criminals being able to steal parked cars is safer over all for society as they then don't feel the need to car jack you while you are actually in the vehicle. Here in the UK vehicle theft reached an all time low in 2014. It’s doubled since then. If there was an increase in car jacking it must have been minescule by comparison. It’s not really a crime that happens here. I had an old beater van that got stolen. It turned out that model was known to be easy to steal. I suspect most car theft is done because it’s easy and fairly low risk. Walk up to a car in the night, fiddle around for a few minutes and drive off. I still drive a car with a key. It’s completely fine. Who actually asked for keyless entry?
- teruakohatu 1y ago
  > Who actually asked for keyless entry? Probably the vast majority of consumers? There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. The cars stolen in New Zealand are usually, as you say, cars that are known to be easy to enter and drive away. Even then, they break a window. But I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage.
  - alias_neo 1y ago
    > I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage My next door neighbour had someone enter their home while they slept, take the key and drive off in their car, because it was "stolen to order" most likely. I couldn't give a shit if someone breaks in to my garage, or frankly if the car is stolen, but I don't want them coming into my house where my family is asleep for the keys. What happens if the keys weren't downstairs by the front door, because I left them on the bedside table or something? I shudder at the thought.
    - 542354234235 1y ago
      I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying cars should be easier to steal so that no one ever breaks into your house to access the keys to your car?
      - alias_neo 1y ago
        Of course not, that's ridiculous. I simply don't drive a car anyone would want to steal.
    - tekknik 1y ago
      Alarm and a gun in the home, problem solved.
  - cjrp 1y ago
    > There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. Isn't the problem that it's designed to work from a distance, and that by boosting the signal the criminals can just increase the distance so that the key inside your house reaches the car? It seems inherently less secure than the old system where the physical key has to be practically touching the ignition to disable the immobiliser.
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      You can boost signal only so much. Apple solved this to be less than a meter or smth like that. With Tesla you can disable keyless entry and use key card if you are so paranoid. But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me.
- ponector 1y ago
  >> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Almost everyone? It's one of the best feature I have in a car, the most convenient one.
  - calcifer 1y ago
    It's a feature we like now that we have it, but not one we asked for.
    - iwanttocomment 1y ago
      Hi! It me. I had a car with keyless entry years ago. It was great. I got another car, more recently, that had a physical key. I've hated having to use the physical key. I personally am asking for keyless entry. Sorry! Also: Hyundai/Kia cars have physical keys and are known to be trivially hot-wired. Given the "kia boyz" I'd have a hard time moving to physical keys again. Again, sorry!
      - dzhiurgis 1y ago
        Time to get flipper zero. Realistically there is not reason some Android maker couldn't roll a phone out with a keyless entry support (with or without OEM blessing heh)
        ponector 1y ago
        If I can unlock my car with my Android's NFC and drive - is it a keyless entry? Is mentioned vulnerability affecting older/cheaper cars? I don't need to press any buttons on my key fob to enter the car and turn on the engine.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        If you need to pull out phone - it’s not really keyless
        iwanttocomment 1y ago
- kayodelycaon 1y ago
  > Who actually asked for keyless entry? Me. I have problems with short-term memory and I kept forgetting my keys in the ignition. This isn’t due to laziness or lack of trying. It’s a hardware problem that makes developing or following habits in certain situations nearly impossible. It’s like asking a blind man to organize things by color. Now that I don’t have to take my keys out of my pocket, I’ve never left them in my car.
- I_dream_of_Geni 1y ago
  I LOVED my Chevy Volt!! Walk up to the car, door unlocks and I climb in. When leaving the car, shut the door, walk away, doors lock. I didn't ask for keyless entry, but I LOVE KEYLESS ENTRY!
a96 1y ago
Old beaters are exactly the things that get stolen. Their security can often be beaten with a butter knife or coat hanger. That's more about minimizing the losses, for which it's a useful approach. Running costs tend to be lower as there's little purchase price and no incentive to do expensive repairs instead of dumping a broken one for another running beater.
- tmerc 1y ago
  You should look up what strikers are and maybe check the statistics for most stolen cars.
xlii 1y ago
If someone wants to stole the car they will steal it. Stealing a car is not the same as stealing a candy. In Europe all parts are marked so it takes significant effort to sell or modify such cars. It's not like people steal them and then sell it at yard sales. As for the "beaters": shortly after Russian invasion on Ukraine plenty of cars were stolen in Poland. Not the expensive kind but usually 10-30 years old cars with big and reliable engines (V6, V8). I know 6 people that had Jeeps Grand Cherokee stolen (different generations). My uncle wanted to renovate Isuzu Rodeo with completely rusty frame but V6 engine of a value of like 300€ and it was stolen too. And it happened ~1 month after it started.
- lupusreal 1y ago
  People stealing cars to sell or chop them up for profit is less of a problem than people stealing cars so they can commit violent crimes with them.
  - CyberDildonics 1y ago
    Based on what data?
    - lupusreal 1y ago
      Based on the "data" of human lives being worth more than cars. WTF!
      - gertlex 1y ago
        I'm probably completely missing the (presumably relatively common) scenarios you have in mind where stolen cars are used for violent crimes. (I'm assuming reckless joyriding isn't what you're referring to as "violent crime"; maybe that's my issue)
        kayodelycaon 1y ago
        Happens in places like New Orleans. Some gang members steal a car, go shoot up a neighborhood, and ditch the car.
lupusreal 1y ago
Strong disagree. Many car thefts are by POS teenagers who do it because it's easy and they can get away with it. They then proceed to drive those cars recklessly, endangering the lives of other people, or worse, use the sense of anonymity and power provided by the stolen car to commit violent crimes. https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/teen-given-max-sentence-after-hitting-and-killing-albuquerque-bicyclist/ https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/teen-given-max-sentence-afte...
lm28469 1y ago
> One could also argue that One could also argue that most people didn't bother because violent crimes are much more severely punished, now that the bar is so low people steal much more. And the stats would back it up https://images.vivintcdn.com/global/Blog%202022/01-Number-of-Motor-Vehicle-Theft-Incidents.png https://images.vivintcdn.com/global/Blog%202022/01-Number-of...
jiscariot 1y ago
Where I live, the ability for the "Kia Boys" to easily steal cars, really boosts their effectiveness at robbing people at gunpoint. Sprees of 20 people being robbed by the same group. It's not poor kids who lack school transporation options, doing their best to get by.

leoedin 1y ago

> One could also argue that criminals being able to steal parked cars is safer over all for society as they then don't feel the need to car jack you while you are actually in the vehicle. Here in the UK vehicle theft reached an all time low in 2014. It’s doubled since then. If there was an increase in car jacking it must have been minescule by comparison. It’s not really a crime that happens here. I had an old beater van that got stolen. It turned out that model was known to be easy to steal. I suspect most car theft is done because it’s easy and fairly low risk. Walk up to a car in the night, fiddle around for a few minutes and drive off. I still drive a car with a key. It’s completely fine. Who actually asked for keyless entry?

teruakohatu 1y ago
> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Probably the vast majority of consumers? There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. The cars stolen in New Zealand are usually, as you say, cars that are known to be easy to enter and drive away. Even then, they break a window. But I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage.
- alias_neo 1y ago
  > I have also heard of break-ins at night targeting certain high-end cars and going as far as gaining entry to a garage My next door neighbour had someone enter their home while they slept, take the key and drive off in their car, because it was "stolen to order" most likely. I couldn't give a shit if someone breaks in to my garage, or frankly if the car is stolen, but I don't want them coming into my house where my family is asleep for the keys. What happens if the keys weren't downstairs by the front door, because I left them on the bedside table or something? I shudder at the thought.
  - 542354234235 1y ago
    I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying cars should be easier to steal so that no one ever breaks into your house to access the keys to your car?
    - alias_neo 1y ago
      Of course not, that's ridiculous. I simply don't drive a car anyone would want to steal.
  - tekknik 1y ago
    Alarm and a gun in the home, problem solved.
- cjrp 1y ago
  > There is no reason why keyless entry cannot be more secure than a physical key, other than incompetence. Isn't the problem that it's designed to work from a distance, and that by boosting the signal the criminals can just increase the distance so that the key inside your house reaches the car? It seems inherently less secure than the old system where the physical key has to be practically touching the ignition to disable the immobiliser.
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    You can boost signal only so much. Apple solved this to be less than a meter or smth like that. With Tesla you can disable keyless entry and use key card if you are so paranoid. But stealing connected car doesn't make much sense to me.
ponector 1y ago
>> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Almost everyone? It's one of the best feature I have in a car, the most convenient one.
- calcifer 1y ago
  It's a feature we like now that we have it, but not one we asked for.
  - iwanttocomment 1y ago
    Hi! It me. I had a car with keyless entry years ago. It was great. I got another car, more recently, that had a physical key. I've hated having to use the physical key. I personally am asking for keyless entry. Sorry! Also: Hyundai/Kia cars have physical keys and are known to be trivially hot-wired. Given the "kia boyz" I'd have a hard time moving to physical keys again. Again, sorry!
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      Time to get flipper zero. Realistically there is not reason some Android maker couldn't roll a phone out with a keyless entry support (with or without OEM blessing heh)
      - ponector 1y ago
        If I can unlock my car with my Android's NFC and drive - is it a keyless entry? Is mentioned vulnerability affecting older/cheaper cars? I don't need to press any buttons on my key fob to enter the car and turn on the engine.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        If you need to pull out phone - it’s not really keyless
      - iwanttocomment 1y ago
kayodelycaon 1y ago
> Who actually asked for keyless entry? Me. I have problems with short-term memory and I kept forgetting my keys in the ignition. This isn’t due to laziness or lack of trying. It’s a hardware problem that makes developing or following habits in certain situations nearly impossible. It’s like asking a blind man to organize things by color. Now that I don’t have to take my keys out of my pocket, I’ve never left them in my car.
I_dream_of_Geni 1y ago
I LOVED my Chevy Volt!! Walk up to the car, door unlocks and I climb in. When leaving the car, shut the door, walk away, doors lock. I didn't ask for keyless entry, but I LOVE KEYLESS ENTRY!

a96 1y ago

Old beaters are exactly the things that get stolen. Their security can often be beaten with a butter knife or coat hanger. That's more about minimizing the losses, for which it's a useful approach. Running costs tend to be lower as there's little purchase price and no incentive to do expensive repairs instead of dumping a broken one for another running beater.

tmerc 1y ago
You should look up what strikers are and maybe check the statistics for most stolen cars.

xlii 1y ago

If someone wants to stole the car they will steal it. Stealing a car is not the same as stealing a candy. In Europe all parts are marked so it takes significant effort to sell or modify such cars. It's not like people steal them and then sell it at yard sales. As for the "beaters": shortly after Russian invasion on Ukraine plenty of cars were stolen in Poland. Not the expensive kind but usually 10-30 years old cars with big and reliable engines (V6, V8). I know 6 people that had Jeeps Grand Cherokee stolen (different generations). My uncle wanted to renovate Isuzu Rodeo with completely rusty frame but V6 engine of a value of like 300€ and it was stolen too. And it happened ~1 month after it started.

lupusreal 1y ago
People stealing cars to sell or chop them up for profit is less of a problem than people stealing cars so they can commit violent crimes with them.
- CyberDildonics 1y ago
  Based on what data?
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    Based on the "data" of human lives being worth more than cars. WTF!
    - gertlex 1y ago
      I'm probably completely missing the (presumably relatively common) scenarios you have in mind where stolen cars are used for violent crimes. (I'm assuming reckless joyriding isn't what you're referring to as "violent crime"; maybe that's my issue)
      - kayodelycaon 1y ago
        Happens in places like New Orleans. Some gang members steal a car, go shoot up a neighborhood, and ditch the car.

lupusreal 1y ago

Strong disagree. Many car thefts are by POS teenagers who do it because it's easy and they can get away with it. They then proceed to drive those cars recklessly, endangering the lives of other people, or worse, use the sense of anonymity and power provided by the stolen car to commit violent crimes. https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/teen-given-max-sentence-after-hitting-and-killing-albuquerque-bicyclist/ https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/teen-given-max-sentence-afte...

lm28469 1y ago

> One could also argue that One could also argue that most people didn't bother because violent crimes are much more severely punished, now that the bar is so low people steal much more. And the stats would back it up https://images.vivintcdn.com/global/Blog%202022/01-Number-of-Motor-Vehicle-Theft-Incidents.png https://images.vivintcdn.com/global/Blog%202022/01-Number-of...

jiscariot 1y ago

Where I live, the ability for the "Kia Boys" to easily steal cars, really boosts their effectiveness at robbing people at gunpoint. Sprees of 20 people being robbed by the same group. It's not poor kids who lack school transporation options, doing their best to get by.