3 ms·

There's a huge value feature, I can keep the "key" in my pocket or bag or whatever and I don't have to fetch it out. Plus the "key" can be a phone or other devi

There's a huge value feature, I can keep the "key" in my pocket or bag or whatever and I don't have to fetch it out. Plus the "key" can be a phone or other device. Adding in a stick of metal that can be trivially bypassed does nothing to make the car more secure.

jsiepkes 1y ago
> Adding in a stick of metal that can be trivially bypassed does nothing to make the car more secure. Everyone can use a flipper zero to unlock a car. Not everyone can hotwire a car. Keyless ignition means criminals have a vastly larger recruitment pool of people they can offer money to do something stupid (like stealing a car for them).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- kube-system 1y ago
  > Everyone can use a flipper zero to unlock a car. Not everyone can hotwire a car. You live in a tech bubble if you really think this is the case. Attacking a lock cylinder is a lot lower-skill of an attack than a cryptographic attack. Recent car theft epidemics have shown this, e.g. #kiaboys
  - jsiepkes 1y ago
    > You live in a tech bubble if you really think this is the case Everyone can operate a flipper zero with a custom firmware which provides a three step process: * Select car make. * Press button A to unlock doors. * Press button B to start car. > Attacking a lock cylinder is a lot lower-skill All "recent" cars (as in everything from about 2000 and up) have an immobiliser. It's even mandatory in some countries since about 2000 [1]. Meaning the key "talks" to the car when you turn it in the lock cylinder. Locking picking the lock or hot-wiring the car isn't going to start the car. And that's not even taking into account the car alarm will go off if you just lock pick a lock on it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser
    - vel0city 1y ago
      In the grand scheme of things, very few people have flipper zeros. Few even know what they are. Meanwhile, I think a pretty high percentage of households have a screwdriver. > All "recent" cars (as in everything from about 2000 and up) have an immobiliser You mean some kind of wireless communication protocol that can be hacked with some kind of handheld SDR device? Why is a keyless entry trivially bypassed but an immobilizer transponder, gee, that's just impossible to hack. Everyone can operate a flipper zero with a cusom firmware which could bypass a transponder. So then all you need is the flipper zero and a screwdriver. Wow such better security for the hassle of having to actually stick the key in the hole every time. I'll still take the keyless option. If someone really wants in my car, they're getting in. If they really want to steal it, they'll steal it. Requiring the thief to have an RF hacking tool and a screwdriver just isn't that much higher security in the end IMO.
rpcope1 1y ago
Automotive ignitions barring a few stupid setups in the 90s like the Jeep XJ (which was laughably easy to steal, but it was Chrysler and AMC so you can just expect certain levels of incompetence and shit design) have been much more than just a simple cut key. Going back to even the 80s, GM had a mostly excellent simple theft deterrent in the keys (a special resistor whose value the ECM knew, called passkeys) that made it harder than just brute forcing the ignition cylinder. It honestly made stealing someone's thirdgen or corvette a lot harder. Keys with things like fobs have evolved since and on a car with a real key made since the vast majority of this sites userbase was probably born is going to take some real specific smarts and work if you need both a physical key and whatever additional security the manufacturer has cooked into the fob. You really need an immobilizer system that requires both a transponder and a correct cut key for the security on the car to be decent.
- vel0city 1y ago
  Tumblers can be trivially bypassed or broken. The only thing providing real security in your examples are the transponders. The cut keys are worthless. If you get rid of the transponder, it has weak security. If you get rid of the cut key, you have pretty much the same security.

jsiepkes 1y ago

> Adding in a stick of metal that can be trivially bypassed does nothing to make the car more secure. Everyone can use a flipper zero to unlock a car. Not everyone can hotwire a car. Keyless ignition means criminals have a vastly larger recruitment pool of people they can offer money to do something stupid (like stealing a car for them).

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
kube-system 1y ago
> Everyone can use a flipper zero to unlock a car. Not everyone can hotwire a car. You live in a tech bubble if you really think this is the case. Attacking a lock cylinder is a lot lower-skill of an attack than a cryptographic attack. Recent car theft epidemics have shown this, e.g. #kiaboys
- jsiepkes 1y ago
  > You live in a tech bubble if you really think this is the case Everyone can operate a flipper zero with a custom firmware which provides a three step process: * Select car make. * Press button A to unlock doors. * Press button B to start car. > Attacking a lock cylinder is a lot lower-skill All "recent" cars (as in everything from about 2000 and up) have an immobiliser. It's even mandatory in some countries since about 2000 [1]. Meaning the key "talks" to the car when you turn it in the lock cylinder. Locking picking the lock or hot-wiring the car isn't going to start the car. And that's not even taking into account the car alarm will go off if you just lock pick a lock on it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser
  - vel0city 1y ago
    In the grand scheme of things, very few people have flipper zeros. Few even know what they are. Meanwhile, I think a pretty high percentage of households have a screwdriver. > All "recent" cars (as in everything from about 2000 and up) have an immobiliser You mean some kind of wireless communication protocol that can be hacked with some kind of handheld SDR device? Why is a keyless entry trivially bypassed but an immobilizer transponder, gee, that's just impossible to hack. Everyone can operate a flipper zero with a cusom firmware which could bypass a transponder. So then all you need is the flipper zero and a screwdriver. Wow such better security for the hassle of having to actually stick the key in the hole every time. I'll still take the keyless option. If someone really wants in my car, they're getting in. If they really want to steal it, they'll steal it. Requiring the thief to have an RF hacking tool and a screwdriver just isn't that much higher security in the end IMO.

rpcope1 1y ago

Automotive ignitions barring a few stupid setups in the 90s like the Jeep XJ (which was laughably easy to steal, but it was Chrysler and AMC so you can just expect certain levels of incompetence and shit design) have been much more than just a simple cut key. Going back to even the 80s, GM had a mostly excellent simple theft deterrent in the keys (a special resistor whose value the ECM knew, called passkeys) that made it harder than just brute forcing the ignition cylinder. It honestly made stealing someone's thirdgen or corvette a lot harder. Keys with things like fobs have evolved since and on a car with a real key made since the vast majority of this sites userbase was probably born is going to take some real specific smarts and work if you need both a physical key and whatever additional security the manufacturer has cooked into the fob. You really need an immobilizer system that requires both a transponder and a correct cut key for the security on the car to be decent.

vel0city 1y ago
Tumblers can be trivially bypassed or broken. The only thing providing real security in your examples are the transponders. The cut keys are worthless. If you get rid of the transponder, it has weak security. If you get rid of the cut key, you have pretty much the same security.