6 ms·

When businesses are fleeing, you're doing something very wrong.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
v5v3 1y ago
Not necessarily. As USA is the main destination for IPO, wouldn't many German companies naturally leave? Also once you are successful you can afford to pay the costs to arrange the companies affairs in a tax efficient manner e.g. utilise low tax regions with the EU such as Luxembourg and wider world.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > As USA is the main destination for IPO Why do you think that might be? Perhaps the Germans could make their IPOs more business friendly, so they have no reason to flee.
  - v5v3 1y ago
    Germany is a smaller country with 70 million people or so. USA has multiples of that at 300million people or so. Many companies will float in New York but also have secondary listings in their home country. If they created a single EU wide stock market it would compete much better.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      Germany has been an enormous economic powerhouse in the past. It can be so again.
      - tonyhart7 1y ago
        why you acting like its not true now??? it still economic powerhouse (at least best on continent)
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        All major German companies have been bleeding money and announcing layoffs like crazy in last years.
        oaiey 1y ago
        German companies are reorganizing themselves to compete in a new world order. Thanks to Trump and Putin. The German industry is build for a peaceful and globalized western world order which was established by the US after WWII and was demolished in the last years. So change is necessary. This will cost for a while and then work again.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >Thanks to Trump and Putin. Nope, it's thanks to loosing competitiveness in some key sectors. Trump and Putin are the convenient scapegoats but it's not Trump and Putin's fault the Xiaomi SU7 is faster and cheaper than a Porsche. It's not Trump and Putin's fault that Germany doesn't have a strong software/service industry. Germany's lack of innovation in new tech is finally catching up with them. Also Trump and Putin didn't force Germany to tie it's economy to Russian gas and invest in copper Internet instead of fiber, that was Schröder, a German. Trump was actually warning Germany about this being a risk and they laughed in his face. Who's laughing now? Germany's economy is built on outdated businesses models around selling expensively manufactured niche products by expensive unionized workers protected by paperwork and bureaucracy that don't work in 2020s anymore when US owns the software industry and China, Korea and Taiwan the hardware industry who aren't bogged down by unions. They've been outcompeted and now are looking for outsider to blame for their own short sighted mistakes where they chased a quick buck at all cost at the expense of the future.
        bawana 1y ago
        Not just Germany…it’s a worldwide contraction. The real economy is shrinking. The financial economy is the only one growing.1% of the world owns 43% of the assets. All the growth numbers you hear have nothing to do w real people. Here in the USA salaries adjusted for inflation have not risen.
  - pyrale 1y ago
    > Why do you think that might be? This kind of rethorical question is annoying. If you have an opinion, state it. > Perhaps the Germans could make their IPOs more business friendly The main reason companies tend to get listed in the US (or, in the case of many large existing companies, to get listed there on top of their existing listing in their home country) is that the US stock market is the largest in the world, and listing there means easier access to more would-be buyers, and therefore better market capitalization. I suspect your advice to German policymakers wasn't "somehow make Frankfurt the largest trading place in the world", but that's litterally what it would take.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      > If you have an opinion, state it. My opinion is obvious. Not as business friendly as the US. Make Germany a more attractive place for business than the US.
- ExpertAdvisor01 1y ago
  Keyword: BEPS. Won't work as easily as you describe it.
libraryatnight 1y ago
Or they're doing it right and someone else is doing it wrong, often the wrong thing appeals to business as the wrong thing is quicker and higher profits. Not saying that's the case with Germany, but it sure doesn't feel like you're default doing something 'wrong' if you're scaring people who already seem to hate paying their taxes.
littlestymaar 1y ago
Yes, it means you have opened the capital, goods and service market way too much and businesses are now abusing that to avoid their basis civil duties.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  The best civic thing a business can do is provide a valuable service and thereby make money. Just look at all the wonderful things we have as a result - airplanes, internet phones, air conditioning, cars, agriculture, movies, AI - the list is endless.
  - probably_wrong 1y ago
    The Internet evolved from Arpanet, a network established by DARPA. Given that was created by a government agency, and therefore funded by the same taxes companies are trying to avoid, I'd argue that it's a great example for why companies should indeed follow their civic duties and pay their taxes. It's also worth pointing out that many of those "wonderful things" had to be regulated by governments due to how bad their business practices and environmental effects are when pursuing making money. Sure, we have cars, but that's coming from the same industry that brought us leaded fuel and global warming.
    - gopher_space 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - littlestymaar 1y ago
        I'm afraid he's not (that was pretty much Milton Friedman's position as well as all of his UChicago fellow, which is the reason why we're back to the gilded age with robber barons all around)
        WalterBright 1y ago
        I actually read the book "The Robber Barons". The author's conclusions do not match the facts he presents.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
weinzierl 1y ago
As a German I couldn't agree more. I am your age and even I consider leaving. If I was still young I wouldn't be here anymore. I think the combination of capital and skilled labour fleeing is very concerning and a trend that could end up self-reinforcing and hard to stop.
- oulipo 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - zgk7iqea 1y ago
    maybe better in terms of overall living standards but not in terms of innovation or the state being friendly to someone running a business
    - oulipo 1y ago
      well what matters in the end is living standard. Innovation is cool, but it's pointless if it is to serve a stupid fascist society
      - zgk7iqea 1y ago
        the OP is about the difficulty of running a business in germany, not living standards. And what matters is always subjective
  - hasnd 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - weinzierl 1y ago
    US as destination is so unrealistic that I'd never really considered it. Also this was about leaving Germany, not necessarily leaving Europe.
  - ExpertAdvisor01 1y ago
    I would rather live/work in the US than Germany . I lived almost my whole life in Germany
oulipo 1y ago
The business owners are doing something very wrong. They are failing to recognize that their business is successful in large part because of the infrastructure in their country, the educated people they can hire, the healthcare, etc So when you get money out of this, you pay your fair share of taxes, like everyone.
- logicchains 1y ago
  >They are failing to recognize that their business is successful in large part because of the infrastructure in their country, the educated people they can hire, the healthcare, etc Empirically that seems to be false, given the number of successful businesses created in Europe in the past couple decades is way way less than in the US or China, even though Europe has better infrastructure, education and public healthcare.
  - Strix97 1y ago
    > Empirically that seems to be false Could you tell me on what data you are basing this argument on? I see this sentiment pop up in every related conversation but haven't seen the source of these claims. Could you help me out?
    - logicchains 1y ago
      Here's some articles on Europe falling behind the US and China in business creation: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/06/05/once-a-corporate-heavyweight-europe-is-now-an-also-ran-can-it-recover-its-footing https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/06/05/once-a-corpora... , https://www.weforum.org/stories/2019/03/europe-is-no-longer-an-innovation-leader-heres-how-it-can-get-ahead/ https://www.weforum.org/stories/2019/03/europe-is-no-longer-... , https://www.wsj.com/tech/europe-big-tech-ai-1f3f862c https://www.wsj.com/tech/europe-big-tech-ai-1f3f862c , https://skaleegenkapital.com/2025/03/11/a-decade-of-startup-dynamics-europe-usa-and-china/ https://skaleegenkapital.com/2025/03/11/a-decade-of-startup-... .
      - Strix97 1y ago
amai 1y ago
Many business are just fleeing to avoid paying taxes.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Then the taxes are too high. Businesses are also fleeing California, New York, etc., because of high taxes.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

v5v3 1y ago

Not necessarily. As USA is the main destination for IPO, wouldn't many German companies naturally leave? Also once you are successful you can afford to pay the costs to arrange the companies affairs in a tax efficient manner e.g. utilise low tax regions with the EU such as Luxembourg and wider world.

WalterBright 1y ago
> As USA is the main destination for IPO Why do you think that might be? Perhaps the Germans could make their IPOs more business friendly, so they have no reason to flee.
- v5v3 1y ago
  Germany is a smaller country with 70 million people or so. USA has multiples of that at 300million people or so. Many companies will float in New York but also have secondary listings in their home country. If they created a single EU wide stock market it would compete much better.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    Germany has been an enormous economic powerhouse in the past. It can be so again.
    - tonyhart7 1y ago
      why you acting like its not true now??? it still economic powerhouse (at least best on continent)
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        All major German companies have been bleeding money and announcing layoffs like crazy in last years.
        oaiey 1y ago
        German companies are reorganizing themselves to compete in a new world order. Thanks to Trump and Putin. The German industry is build for a peaceful and globalized western world order which was established by the US after WWII and was demolished in the last years. So change is necessary. This will cost for a while and then work again.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >Thanks to Trump and Putin. Nope, it's thanks to loosing competitiveness in some key sectors. Trump and Putin are the convenient scapegoats but it's not Trump and Putin's fault the Xiaomi SU7 is faster and cheaper than a Porsche. It's not Trump and Putin's fault that Germany doesn't have a strong software/service industry. Germany's lack of innovation in new tech is finally catching up with them. Also Trump and Putin didn't force Germany to tie it's economy to Russian gas and invest in copper Internet instead of fiber, that was Schröder, a German. Trump was actually warning Germany about this being a risk and they laughed in his face. Who's laughing now? Germany's economy is built on outdated businesses models around selling expensively manufactured niche products by expensive unionized workers protected by paperwork and bureaucracy that don't work in 2020s anymore when US owns the software industry and China, Korea and Taiwan the hardware industry who aren't bogged down by unions. They've been outcompeted and now are looking for outsider to blame for their own short sighted mistakes where they chased a quick buck at all cost at the expense of the future.
        bawana 1y ago
        Not just Germany…it’s a worldwide contraction. The real economy is shrinking. The financial economy is the only one growing.1% of the world owns 43% of the assets. All the growth numbers you hear have nothing to do w real people. Here in the USA salaries adjusted for inflation have not risen.
- pyrale 1y ago
  > Why do you think that might be? This kind of rethorical question is annoying. If you have an opinion, state it. > Perhaps the Germans could make their IPOs more business friendly The main reason companies tend to get listed in the US (or, in the case of many large existing companies, to get listed there on top of their existing listing in their home country) is that the US stock market is the largest in the world, and listing there means easier access to more would-be buyers, and therefore better market capitalization. I suspect your advice to German policymakers wasn't "somehow make Frankfurt the largest trading place in the world", but that's litterally what it would take.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > If you have an opinion, state it. My opinion is obvious. Not as business friendly as the US. Make Germany a more attractive place for business than the US.
ExpertAdvisor01 1y ago
Keyword: BEPS. Won't work as easily as you describe it.

libraryatnight 1y ago

Or they're doing it right and someone else is doing it wrong, often the wrong thing appeals to business as the wrong thing is quicker and higher profits. Not saying that's the case with Germany, but it sure doesn't feel like you're default doing something 'wrong' if you're scaring people who already seem to hate paying their taxes.

littlestymaar 1y ago

Yes, it means you have opened the capital, goods and service market way too much and businesses are now abusing that to avoid their basis civil duties.

WalterBright 1y ago
The best civic thing a business can do is provide a valuable service and thereby make money. Just look at all the wonderful things we have as a result - airplanes, internet phones, air conditioning, cars, agriculture, movies, AI - the list is endless.
- probably_wrong 1y ago
  The Internet evolved from Arpanet, a network established by DARPA. Given that was created by a government agency, and therefore funded by the same taxes companies are trying to avoid, I'd argue that it's a great example for why companies should indeed follow their civic duties and pay their taxes. It's also worth pointing out that many of those "wonderful things" had to be regulated by governments due to how bad their business practices and environmental effects are when pursuing making money. Sure, we have cars, but that's coming from the same industry that brought us leaded fuel and global warming.
  - gopher_space 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      I'm afraid he's not (that was pretty much Milton Friedman's position as well as all of his UChicago fellow, which is the reason why we're back to the gilded age with robber barons all around)
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        I actually read the book "The Robber Barons". The author's conclusions do not match the facts he presents.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

weinzierl 1y ago

As a German I couldn't agree more. I am your age and even I consider leaving. If I was still young I wouldn't be here anymore. I think the combination of capital and skilled labour fleeing is very concerning and a trend that could end up self-reinforcing and hard to stop.

oulipo 1y ago
[flagged]
- zgk7iqea 1y ago
  maybe better in terms of overall living standards but not in terms of innovation or the state being friendly to someone running a business
  - oulipo 1y ago
    well what matters in the end is living standard. Innovation is cool, but it's pointless if it is to serve a stupid fascist society
    - zgk7iqea 1y ago
      the OP is about the difficulty of running a business in germany, not living standards. And what matters is always subjective
- hasnd 1y ago
  [flagged]
- weinzierl 1y ago
  US as destination is so unrealistic that I'd never really considered it. Also this was about leaving Germany, not necessarily leaving Europe.
- ExpertAdvisor01 1y ago
  I would rather live/work in the US than Germany . I lived almost my whole life in Germany

oulipo 1y ago

The business owners are doing something very wrong. They are failing to recognize that their business is successful in large part because of the infrastructure in their country, the educated people they can hire, the healthcare, etc So when you get money out of this, you pay your fair share of taxes, like everyone.

logicchains 1y ago
>They are failing to recognize that their business is successful in large part because of the infrastructure in their country, the educated people they can hire, the healthcare, etc Empirically that seems to be false, given the number of successful businesses created in Europe in the past couple decades is way way less than in the US or China, even though Europe has better infrastructure, education and public healthcare.
- Strix97 1y ago
  > Empirically that seems to be false Could you tell me on what data you are basing this argument on? I see this sentiment pop up in every related conversation but haven't seen the source of these claims. Could you help me out?
  - logicchains 1y ago
    Here's some articles on Europe falling behind the US and China in business creation: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/06/05/once-a-corporate-heavyweight-europe-is-now-an-also-ran-can-it-recover-its-footing https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/06/05/once-a-corpora... , https://www.weforum.org/stories/2019/03/europe-is-no-longer-an-innovation-leader-heres-how-it-can-get-ahead/ https://www.weforum.org/stories/2019/03/europe-is-no-longer-... , https://www.wsj.com/tech/europe-big-tech-ai-1f3f862c https://www.wsj.com/tech/europe-big-tech-ai-1f3f862c , https://skaleegenkapital.com/2025/03/11/a-decade-of-startup-dynamics-europe-usa-and-china/ https://skaleegenkapital.com/2025/03/11/a-decade-of-startup-... .
    - Strix97 1y ago

amai 1y ago

Many business are just fleeing to avoid paying taxes.

WalterBright 1y ago
Then the taxes are too high. Businesses are also fleeing California, New York, etc., because of high taxes.