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I'm not optimistic about BlueSky's profitability - the current free-at-point of use is a result of VC funding. So personally I'd be wary of adopting it. I thin

I'm not optimistic about BlueSky's profitability - the current free-at-point of use is a result of VC funding. So personally I'd be wary of adopting it. I think it's likely the API gets locked down and the comments break in a couple of years.

PaulHoule 1y ago
I really believe in https://indieweb.org/POSSE https://indieweb.org/POSSE and would say the bright side of the "enshittification cycle" is that we get nice places for a while and then we can move on. It's not like people party at the Mudd Club or CBGB anymore and why should they? Theory at https://mastodon.social/@UP8/114988462585487831 https://mastodon.social/@UP8/114988462585487831
- ujkhsjkdhf234 1y ago
  I think BlueSky should lean into this and operate as a domain registrar like Squarespace does.
  - biggestfan 1y ago
    They did this for a few years (specifically selling domains to use as a username), not sure if they do anymore. They also sold a bunch of shirts as a stunt against Meta earlier this year, and the shirt sales were more revenue than the domains had been.
- spartanatreyu 1y ago
  If we already know that the for-profit social networks will always go through the enshittification cycle, why not use a not-for-profit social network like mastodon?
  - PaulHoule 1y ago
    You should use both of them and have tools to automate that.
danabramov 1y ago
Note Bluesky is architected to be downstream of PDS (personal data servers) which any user can switch to another provider, and the Bluesky app server acts as an aggregator (but anyone else can build their own aggregators — and people already have). So as Natalie notes in the post, you don’t even “have to” use the Bluesky app API to access the posts. You can get them from a third-party app server (“app view”) or even have your own. They’re all aggregating from the same data source.
- fsflover 1y ago
  https://pluralistic.net/2024/11/02/ulysses-pact/#tie-yourself-to-a-federated-mast https://pluralistic.net/2024/11/02/ulysses-pact/#tie-yoursel... https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/ https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - danabramov 1y ago
    Some of this is already outdated. With the switch to non-indexing relays (“Sync 1.1”), people are already running independent relays quite cheaply. There are also actual independent AppViews coming up. https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
    - fsflover 1y ago
      I'll believe it when I see a list of relatively large, independent servers, which don't go offline all together in case of network problems.
      - danabramov 1y ago
        Just to clarify, do you understand that this isn’t the same model as in Mastodon/ActivityPub? It isn’t a bunch of application servers “talking to each other” that different people are “on”. It’s not the kind of situation where your post goes viral and “your server” “goes offline” as a result. There’s a separation. Data is hosted on PDSs (which are already super cheap to host and are not resource-intensive because they’re just storing data and not doing much computation). They’re not “talking to each other” or serving the web app like Mastodon servers do — they just store your commits like Git and let you subscribe to that stream. I don’t know what “relatively large” means to you as most independent PDS’s are individual people hosting their own data (so they’re actually small) but this sector is growing. Then, there’s relays (not a lot now but again, they’re now much cheaper to run since Sync 1.1 updates). And then there’s AppViews (which are more expensive to run because it’s like running an actual app backend with database and all that). Which isn’t too bad if you serve a smaller userbase but is harder if you want to serve millions of people like Bluesky’s own AppView does. Normal considerations of “running a web app for millions of users” apply here. But keep in mind that people on all backends see exactly the same data — it’s not being sent back and forth like messages between “federated servers” like on Mastodon. It’s being aggregated from the entire network via relay(s). So if I want to run a Bluesky backend (aka AppView) for a small group of people, I can do that relatively cheap and see the same content as the rest of the network sees. If my content goes viral, my servers won’t go down because going viral has nothing to do with the load on AppView. The load on AppView is just about how many people are hitting my own backend from their browsers (apps) — nothing to do with which server I have chosen to store data on (PDS) or to host my custom web app on (AppView). So when you say “list of servers”, what kind of servers are you referring to? They all have different incentives to run (I’ve enumerated them above) and different relation to the user (PDS is something you choose, akin to hosting; AppView is determined by your client; relay is kind of behind the scenes and determined by AppView). And if you’re concerned about the load, I want to better understand which scenario you’re describing.
EA-3167 1y ago
> I'm not optimistic about BlueSky's profitability - the current free-at-point of use is a result of VC funding. You aren't wrong, there will be a turn at some point just like there was with Twitter, but then the same is true of 'AI' and people seem happy to go all-in on that. If VC's want to burn their money on the dream of becoming some new kind of rich... good, let them. Sure it turns sour after a while (Uber, Doordash, etc)... but enjoy the largess before they figure out there's no magic money tree in those hills.
- fsflover 1y ago
  > but enjoy the largess before they figure out there's no magic money tree ...and you loose access to all your messages and network.
  - yellowapple 1y ago
    Incorrect: https://www.da.vidbuchanan.co.uk/blog/adversarial-pds-migration.html https://www.da.vidbuchanan.co.uk/blog/adversarial-pds-migrat...
mikevm 1y ago
[dead]
mvieira38 1y ago
Bluesky is just enshittified Mastodon. It advertises federation while making it extremely impractical to use
- integralid 1y ago
  To each their own. I prefer the centralized-yet-open approach of bluesky to the artistic chaos of mastodon. I like the idea of mastodon, and it's great for certain kind of people and certain kind of discussion, but I hope you agree that it will never be mass adopted.
  - archagon 1y ago
    It's possible that it will become mass adopted in the future on account of its (effective) uncensorability. The gulf between Bluesky and Mastodon UX is, in my opinion, relatively small and fixable with a bit of effort.

PaulHoule 1y ago

I really believe in https://indieweb.org/POSSE https://indieweb.org/POSSE and would say the bright side of the "enshittification cycle" is that we get nice places for a while and then we can move on. It's not like people party at the Mudd Club or CBGB anymore and why should they? Theory at https://mastodon.social/@UP8/114988462585487831 https://mastodon.social/@UP8/114988462585487831

ujkhsjkdhf234 1y ago
I think BlueSky should lean into this and operate as a domain registrar like Squarespace does.
- biggestfan 1y ago
  They did this for a few years (specifically selling domains to use as a username), not sure if they do anymore. They also sold a bunch of shirts as a stunt against Meta earlier this year, and the shirt sales were more revenue than the domains had been.
spartanatreyu 1y ago
If we already know that the for-profit social networks will always go through the enshittification cycle, why not use a not-for-profit social network like mastodon?
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  You should use both of them and have tools to automate that.

danabramov 1y ago

Note Bluesky is architected to be downstream of PDS (personal data servers) which any user can switch to another provider, and the Bluesky app server acts as an aggregator (but anyone else can build their own aggregators — and people already have). So as Natalie notes in the post, you don’t even “have to” use the Bluesky app API to access the posts. You can get them from a third-party app server (“app view”) or even have your own. They’re all aggregating from the same data source.

fsflover 1y ago
https://pluralistic.net/2024/11/02/ulysses-pact/#tie-yourself-to-a-federated-mast https://pluralistic.net/2024/11/02/ulysses-pact/#tie-yoursel... https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/ https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- danabramov 1y ago
  Some of this is already outdated. With the switch to non-indexing relays (“Sync 1.1”), people are already running independent relays quite cheaply. There are also actual independent AppViews coming up. https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
  - fsflover 1y ago
    I'll believe it when I see a list of relatively large, independent servers, which don't go offline all together in case of network problems.
    - danabramov 1y ago
      Just to clarify, do you understand that this isn’t the same model as in Mastodon/ActivityPub? It isn’t a bunch of application servers “talking to each other” that different people are “on”. It’s not the kind of situation where your post goes viral and “your server” “goes offline” as a result. There’s a separation. Data is hosted on PDSs (which are already super cheap to host and are not resource-intensive because they’re just storing data and not doing much computation). They’re not “talking to each other” or serving the web app like Mastodon servers do — they just store your commits like Git and let you subscribe to that stream. I don’t know what “relatively large” means to you as most independent PDS’s are individual people hosting their own data (so they’re actually small) but this sector is growing. Then, there’s relays (not a lot now but again, they’re now much cheaper to run since Sync 1.1 updates). And then there’s AppViews (which are more expensive to run because it’s like running an actual app backend with database and all that). Which isn’t too bad if you serve a smaller userbase but is harder if you want to serve millions of people like Bluesky’s own AppView does. Normal considerations of “running a web app for millions of users” apply here. But keep in mind that people on all backends see exactly the same data — it’s not being sent back and forth like messages between “federated servers” like on Mastodon. It’s being aggregated from the entire network via relay(s). So if I want to run a Bluesky backend (aka AppView) for a small group of people, I can do that relatively cheap and see the same content as the rest of the network sees. If my content goes viral, my servers won’t go down because going viral has nothing to do with the load on AppView. The load on AppView is just about how many people are hitting my own backend from their browsers (apps) — nothing to do with which server I have chosen to store data on (PDS) or to host my custom web app on (AppView). So when you say “list of servers”, what kind of servers are you referring to? They all have different incentives to run (I’ve enumerated them above) and different relation to the user (PDS is something you choose, akin to hosting; AppView is determined by your client; relay is kind of behind the scenes and determined by AppView). And if you’re concerned about the load, I want to better understand which scenario you’re describing.

EA-3167 1y ago

> I'm not optimistic about BlueSky's profitability - the current free-at-point of use is a result of VC funding. You aren't wrong, there will be a turn at some point just like there was with Twitter, but then the same is true of 'AI' and people seem happy to go all-in on that. If VC's want to burn their money on the dream of becoming some new kind of rich... good, let them. Sure it turns sour after a while (Uber, Doordash, etc)... but enjoy the largess before they figure out there's no magic money tree in those hills.

fsflover 1y ago
> but enjoy the largess before they figure out there's no magic money tree ...and you loose access to all your messages and network.
- yellowapple 1y ago
  Incorrect: https://www.da.vidbuchanan.co.uk/blog/adversarial-pds-migration.html https://www.da.vidbuchanan.co.uk/blog/adversarial-pds-migrat...

mikevm 1y ago

[dead]

mvieira38 1y ago

Bluesky is just enshittified Mastodon. It advertises federation while making it extremely impractical to use

integralid 1y ago
To each their own. I prefer the centralized-yet-open approach of bluesky to the artistic chaos of mastodon. I like the idea of mastodon, and it's great for certain kind of people and certain kind of discussion, but I hope you agree that it will never be mass adopted.
- archagon 1y ago
  It's possible that it will become mass adopted in the future on account of its (effective) uncensorability. The gulf between Bluesky and Mastodon UX is, in my opinion, relatively small and fixable with a bit of effort.