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This, again, makes me question what meaning individual workers should find in work. Ideally (level 3, the best), I could work with good people on something tha

This, again, makes me question what meaning individual workers should find in work. Ideally (level 3, the best), I could work with good people on something that I personally care about, like curing childhood cancer or something. This is the type of work I would do even if I wasn't paid, although I couldn't do as much without pay. The meaning is obvious. This type of job is rare though, so I can't reliably expect to find this level of meaning in work. But maybe (level 2), I can work with good people towards making a company profitable. Helping an honest company be profitable for the mutual benefit of all the good people I work with is meaning enough for me. But companies often ask individual workers to do stupid things, or a company is not open to hearing ideas about how to be more successful from individual workers. So I can't reliably take personal meaning from making the company profitable, because the company isn't interested in hearing my ideas about the business, and/or is acting is self-destructive ways, and/or the companies profits are completely disconnect from anything I personally do. But maybe (level 1), I can find meaning in making my boss happy. This is hell, this is a pathetic meaning for work, but making the boss happy is at least something. But often my bosses are not good people (about 50%). I've seen what makes them happy and I don't want to be that. So, (level 0) I guess the only meaning I have left is to make money. If this is really the meaning behind my work, then I see no reason to not cheat and lie at every opportunity, while being careful to avoid consequences. If earning money really is the deepest meaning I should seek in work, then lying and cheating will help me with this--let's go full psychopath mode! On HN people often say that level 2 is the right attitude, but companies do things that are self-destructive, so I cannot maintain level 2. Level 1 and level 0 are stages of hell. What meaning do you find in work? What level are you?

HPsquared 1y ago
Then there are levels of meaning in "making money". Are you feeding the family, or paying student loans for a course you didn't use? Etc etc
serial_dev 1y ago
> a company is not open to hearing ideas about how to be more successful from individual workers I got happier when I realized this and accepted I’m just a cog. Before realizing this, I’d want to make sure people understand my viewpoint, argued and reasoned, then got frustrated when I got ignored. The realization came when I worked for a very small startup where, while being 33% of the company (first employee to the two founders), my ideas and warnings were continuously ignored. So more I’m close to your level 0. Focus on making enough money to support my family and humble financial goals, try to work on interesting projects, build my resume, and make sure I can leave when things inevitably turn to sht. Sure, if I strongly disagree with something and I believe there is a chance my feedback will make a difference, I’ll give it once, if I get ignored I just move on.
mleonhard 1y ago
Your comment expresses what I've been thinking. Doing the Staff Engineer role requires close alignment with one's management chain. Working at level 2 (working for the success of the company) is only possible with a manager who also works at level 2. How to find such people and get hired by them?
- Buttons840 1y ago
  At some point I'm going to write my comment into a blog. I'd love for there to be some widely recognized labels for the types of jobs, just as a means of shaming how sad the situation is. "Is this a level 2 job, or just a level 1 job?" Maybe it can help us be honest that most of our intellectual capacity as a nation is just wasted because people never have an opportunity to do more than exactly what their boss asks for the day. Did you know they cut up Einstein's brain to try and learn what made him special? Turns out, one of the things that made Einstein special was that he had an opportunity to do things. "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." - Stephen Jay Gould
  - card_zero 1y ago
    I don't think there can be a formula for creating opportunities. I suppose banning sweatshops leads to people living and dying in ethical shoe factories.

HPsquared 1y ago

Then there are levels of meaning in "making money". Are you feeding the family, or paying student loans for a course you didn't use? Etc etc

serial_dev 1y ago

> a company is not open to hearing ideas about how to be more successful from individual workers I got happier when I realized this and accepted I’m just a cog. Before realizing this, I’d want to make sure people understand my viewpoint, argued and reasoned, then got frustrated when I got ignored. The realization came when I worked for a very small startup where, while being 33% of the company (first employee to the two founders), my ideas and warnings were continuously ignored. So more I’m close to your level 0. Focus on making enough money to support my family and humble financial goals, try to work on interesting projects, build my resume, and make sure I can leave when things inevitably turn to sht. Sure, if I strongly disagree with something and I believe there is a chance my feedback will make a difference, I’ll give it once, if I get ignored I just move on.

mleonhard 1y ago

Your comment expresses what I've been thinking. Doing the Staff Engineer role requires close alignment with one's management chain. Working at level 2 (working for the success of the company) is only possible with a manager who also works at level 2. How to find such people and get hired by them?

Buttons840 1y ago
At some point I'm going to write my comment into a blog. I'd love for there to be some widely recognized labels for the types of jobs, just as a means of shaming how sad the situation is. "Is this a level 2 job, or just a level 1 job?" Maybe it can help us be honest that most of our intellectual capacity as a nation is just wasted because people never have an opportunity to do more than exactly what their boss asks for the day. Did you know they cut up Einstein's brain to try and learn what made him special? Turns out, one of the things that made Einstein special was that he had an opportunity to do things. "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." - Stephen Jay Gould
- card_zero 1y ago
  I don't think there can be a formula for creating opportunities. I suppose banning sweatshops leads to people living and dying in ethical shoe factories.