4 ms·

So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this an

So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents? I don't really understand this mindset. I already ordered 5mg tablets of lithium orate as soon as I read this. I'll just add them to the handfuls of other supplements I take each day just in case they may protect against common degenerative ailments. I very much adhere to the better safe than sorry or yolo approach to supplementation.

Angostura 1y ago
> I don't really understand this mindset. It's called evidence-based medicine and it's useful for answering questions such such as 'with taking Lithium prevent Alzheimer's by ensuring you die of kidney disease first. Taking a bunch of unnecessary supplements isn't inherently "safe".
- wonderwonder 1y ago
  Low dose lithium is not going to cause kidney failure. I was also responding specifically to OP advocating for people to intentionally not to take it so there is a ready supply of people to test it on who are not already on it for a long period of time (decades). They are advocating for self sacrifice. This by default means there must be a large supply of people not on it for a long period of time who will suffer and die from Alzheimer's instead of just taking the supplement. That was my issue. It seemed to call for the self sacrifice of many in order to allow for a long term study. But I think you already know that if you read my response and just chose to focus on a single sentence.
cubefox 1y ago
The alternative to a clinical trial would be that there continues to be much less certainty whether lithium orotate actually works and is safe. Which would result in less or more usage than optimal.
- wonderwonder 1y ago
  I will ask you the same question I asked OP "Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents?" Since that is essentially what you are asking the people that would have ordered low dose lithium based on this article to do.
  - cubefox 1y ago
    Well I was the OP. It might be a tragedy of the commons situation. For each individual it may be better to ignore trials and just self medicate, but on the whole this could lead to an overall worse outcome in the long run.
    - wonderwonder 1y ago
      Ha! you were op, my fault :) Although that means you avoided answering my question directly multiple times although I think you strongly alluded that the answer would be no in your last response. I look at my life and those of my family as precious and more valuable than all other lives (their lives over mine). I expect others to operate in a similar manner and that is why I am always taken aback at posts that seem to advocate for the sacrifice of one's self for the benefit of strangers. This is different of course from in the moment actions such as running into a burning building to save someone or stepping up to protect a woman you have never met from an aggressive man. Your response while vague appears to indicate that you would not sacrifice yourself for this experiment either. Which is what I would expect from everyone. I understand your general advocation for the clinical study and I agree with the need overall but not at the cost of intentionally sacrificing oneself. So I'll pop a low dose lithium tablet along with a baby aspirin each night and hope you do the same. Wishing you a long life my friend.
bawolff 1y ago
> So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? And if it actually makes Alzheimer's worse? We are talking about a mouse model of a disease that very famously doesn't work the same way in mice and humans. The most likely scenario is it does nothing. With this level of evidence you might as well just eat random garbage off the ground in the off chance it helps.
- wonderwonder 1y ago
  Probably nothing https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31954065/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31954065/ "Conclusion: Individuals with BD [Bi Polar Disorder] are at higher risk of dementia than both the general population or those with MDD. Lithium appears to reduce the risk of developing dementia in BD."
vczf 1y ago
5mg may be an order of magnitude more than needed. I started my father [0] on ≈200ug and he was more animated and looked at photos around the house much more. Bumped him up to ≈500ug [1] the last two days, and he’s shown a nearly unbelievable improvement in lucidity and recognition. He’s still nonverbal but babbling a lot more, and in a non-agitated way. He’ll make eye contact with us more and wiggle his eyebrows. He has not been running away from me during morning yogurt and other meals we sometimes have standing up. More responsive to music, photos, eye contact. He actually kissed my mom today and then got teary-eyed. He hasn’t done anything like that in at least a year. Tonight when he was tired, he wasn't unstoppably wandering. He was tired but still “there” and lucid. I was able to calmly walk him to his bedroom. Lithium orotate might be the magic bullet. Lithium deficiency could very well be the cause of age-related neurodegeneration. It’s too early in my personal case study to draw firm conclusions, but this is looking absolutely incredible from my perspective as a caregiver. Subjectively, he seems no longer “lost” in the darkness. If he is still stable and/or improving in a month, I will be making as much noise about this treatment as I can online and in meatspace. [2] [0] Early onset posterior cortical atrophy and corticobasal degeneration. It presents initially as visual disturbances, hallucinations, and coordination problems rather than memory loss. Sometimes memory and speech can persist until the end. [1] I opened up some 5mg Nutricost capsules, weighed the contents, and calculated how much of the mixture is needed for a given amount of active ingredient. Then I measure out each dose on a calibrated milligram scale. This is definitely out of reach for many people, so ideally companies can just add a small dose to multivitamins and call it a day. I’ve been taking the same dose I give my dad, and have not noticed much of anything. [2] There are some ethical considerations in halting the disease process for those with late stage dementia. It would be inhumane to “cure” advanced AD if one has no hope of a life worth living, given one’s current capabilities and options. (For example, bed-bound in nursing homes with severe memory loss.) I’m very optimistic about lithium orotate, but I doubt it can do more than halt the neurodegeneration—which would mean rapidly hitting a low ceiling for cognitive improvements after beginning the therapy. That also means a practically life-long caregiving requirement. I didn’t want to be a caregiver for my father for the next 30+ years, but frankly I did not expect such a dramatic and immediate improvement in his condition. I expected nothing at all to happen.

Angostura 1y ago

> I don't really understand this mindset. It's called evidence-based medicine and it's useful for answering questions such such as 'with taking Lithium prevent Alzheimer's by ensuring you die of kidney disease first. Taking a bunch of unnecessary supplements isn't inherently "safe".

wonderwonder 1y ago
Low dose lithium is not going to cause kidney failure. I was also responding specifically to OP advocating for people to intentionally not to take it so there is a ready supply of people to test it on who are not already on it for a long period of time (decades). They are advocating for self sacrifice. This by default means there must be a large supply of people not on it for a long period of time who will suffer and die from Alzheimer's instead of just taking the supplement. That was my issue. It seemed to call for the self sacrifice of many in order to allow for a long term study. But I think you already know that if you read my response and just chose to focus on a single sentence.

cubefox 1y ago

The alternative to a clinical trial would be that there continues to be much less certainty whether lithium orotate actually works and is safe. Which would result in less or more usage than optimal.

wonderwonder 1y ago
I will ask you the same question I asked OP "Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents?" Since that is essentially what you are asking the people that would have ordered low dose lithium based on this article to do.
- cubefox 1y ago
  Well I was the OP. It might be a tragedy of the commons situation. For each individual it may be better to ignore trials and just self medicate, but on the whole this could lead to an overall worse outcome in the long run.
  - wonderwonder 1y ago
    Ha! you were op, my fault :) Although that means you avoided answering my question directly multiple times although I think you strongly alluded that the answer would be no in your last response. I look at my life and those of my family as precious and more valuable than all other lives (their lives over mine). I expect others to operate in a similar manner and that is why I am always taken aback at posts that seem to advocate for the sacrifice of one's self for the benefit of strangers. This is different of course from in the moment actions such as running into a burning building to save someone or stepping up to protect a woman you have never met from an aggressive man. Your response while vague appears to indicate that you would not sacrifice yourself for this experiment either. Which is what I would expect from everyone. I understand your general advocation for the clinical study and I agree with the need overall but not at the cost of intentionally sacrificing oneself. So I'll pop a low dose lithium tablet along with a baby aspirin each night and hope you do the same. Wishing you a long life my friend.

bawolff 1y ago

> So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? And if it actually makes Alzheimer's worse? We are talking about a mouse model of a disease that very famously doesn't work the same way in mice and humans. The most likely scenario is it does nothing. With this level of evidence you might as well just eat random garbage off the ground in the off chance it helps.

wonderwonder 1y ago
Probably nothing https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31954065/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31954065/ "Conclusion: Individuals with BD [Bi Polar Disorder] are at higher risk of dementia than both the general population or those with MDD. Lithium appears to reduce the risk of developing dementia in BD."

vczf 1y ago

5mg may be an order of magnitude more than needed. I started my father [0] on ≈200ug and he was more animated and looked at photos around the house much more. Bumped him up to ≈500ug [1] the last two days, and he’s shown a nearly unbelievable improvement in lucidity and recognition. He’s still nonverbal but babbling a lot more, and in a non-agitated way. He’ll make eye contact with us more and wiggle his eyebrows. He has not been running away from me during morning yogurt and other meals we sometimes have standing up. More responsive to music, photos, eye contact. He actually kissed my mom today and then got teary-eyed. He hasn’t done anything like that in at least a year. Tonight when he was tired, he wasn't unstoppably wandering. He was tired but still “there” and lucid. I was able to calmly walk him to his bedroom. Lithium orotate might be the magic bullet. Lithium deficiency could very well be the cause of age-related neurodegeneration. It’s too early in my personal case study to draw firm conclusions, but this is looking absolutely incredible from my perspective as a caregiver. Subjectively, he seems no longer “lost” in the darkness. If he is still stable and/or improving in a month, I will be making as much noise about this treatment as I can online and in meatspace. [2] [0] Early onset posterior cortical atrophy and corticobasal degeneration. It presents initially as visual disturbances, hallucinations, and coordination problems rather than memory loss. Sometimes memory and speech can persist until the end. [1] I opened up some 5mg Nutricost capsules, weighed the contents, and calculated how much of the mixture is needed for a given amount of active ingredient. Then I measure out each dose on a calibrated milligram scale. This is definitely out of reach for many people, so ideally companies can just add a small dose to multivitamins and call it a day. I’ve been taking the same dose I give my dad, and have not noticed much of anything. [2] There are some ethical considerations in halting the disease process for those with late stage dementia. It would be inhumane to “cure” advanced AD if one has no hope of a life worth living, given one’s current capabilities and options. (For example, bed-bound in nursing homes with severe memory loss.) I’m very optimistic about lithium orotate, but I doubt it can do more than halt the neurodegeneration—which would mean rapidly hitting a low ceiling for cognitive improvements after beginning the therapy. That also means a practically life-long caregiving requirement. I didn’t want to be a caregiver for my father for the next 30+ years, but frankly I did not expect such a dramatic and immediate improvement in his condition. I expected nothing at all to happen.