4 ms·

My number one requirement is that any car that I buy is mine. No subscriptions. No calling back to the mothership. No spying on my activities or driving skills.

My number one requirement is that any car that I buy is mine. No subscriptions. No calling back to the mothership. No spying on my activities or driving skills. I'd like to be able to repair it too, or at least be able to take it to the mechanic of my choice. This is a somewhat different desire than simply K.I.S.S.--and wasn't addressed in the article--though I wouldn't mind that either.

jacquesm 1y ago
These are the exact reasons my car is now 28 years old. It's not like I can't afford a new one but I want a vehicle, not a piece of malware on wheels.
- pryelluw 1y ago
  What do you drive if you do t mind me asking? Fellow older car driver here. I have a 91 Mustang.
- sleepyguy 1y ago
  2006 Lexus IS350, 2007 Toyota Avalon, 2010 Toyota Venza. My in-laws have a 2000 4Runner that I still need to drive into the ground, but I'm not sure if I will be able to do it since it refuses to die (325k miles). All the vehicles are immaculate and have at least a decade or more left in them. I plan to drive them all, as long as they continue to sell gasoline.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    That 4Runner will be a heirloom. Those things are in ever sense of the word indestructible unless you start plowing into concrete walls or something like that. Just regular use will most likely not kill it as long as there is oil and coolant in it.
  - drweevil 1y ago
    I have a 2011 Subaru Forrester. It has 5 on the floor. Once when I pulled up to the post office I took it out of gear and pulled the parking brake. A fellow had pulled up right next to me just then. He asked me "Is that a manual? I thought I heard a parking brake!" I answered in the affirmative. He offered to trade me his Jeep Wagoneer straight up, no questions. I politely declined. I don't know what business car manufacturers think they're in. Finance? Data brokers? Social media? Someone needs to get back to making cars.
- jjav 1y ago
  > not a piece of malware on wheels Indeed. Aside from price, this is why I will never own a new car, or anything newer than roughly 2015 or so (depends on manufacturer). A car must absolutely not have any internet phone-home spyware connectivity.
0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
Is that even possible on a modern vehicle? I thought all of the major brands were now selling your location data.
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  I've heard you can yank a fuse/relay/antenna and avoid it but would like confirmation of that.
  - OptionOfT 1y ago
    That used to work. Not anymore. Now that we have embedded SIMs and integrated GPS/Cellular antennas pulling the fuse does a lot more than just disabling sending back data. It also kills a very important safety feature, the one that auto-calls 911/112/999/... when you get into an accident.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    At least 10 years ago you could remove the cable/bridge that connected the network board to the rest of the car. I'm not sure thats possible anymore. About 8 years ago you could get a fleet type vehicle that didn't include stuff like OnStar. Not sure thats possible anymore either.
  - inahga 1y ago
    2023 Jeep: I was able to remove the cellular modem from the head unit. Disconnecting the antenna was not effective (just reduces the range). See e.g. https://sandsprite.com/blogs/index.php?uid=7&pid=462&year=2019 https://sandsprite.com/blogs/index.php?uid=7&pid=462&year=20...
  - bityard 1y ago
    Maybe in some cars, but certainly not all. I have a 2021 Highlander. We have no subscription to anything related to the car itself, but there is definitely a mobile connection sending data back to the mothership every time the car is turned on. I know this, because A) Toyota's manuals/literature say they do this, and B) There's an icon on the "infotainment" screen showing the signal strength. All car manufacturers are extremely vague about what data they are sending, but you can assume it's basically everything: GPS location, speed, engine and maintenance data, control inputs (accelerator, brake, light switches), even seat occupancy. (Yep, mine has seat sensors for that.) I spent several hours researching how to disable this thing and there is very little information on doing so for my exact year/model. What little info I did find says there's no easy and simple way. The fuse for it powers several other things. There is a module you can disconnect somewhere deep in the dash, but you lose other functionality like Bluetooth. And the car will probably constantly warn you about a failed module and turn your check engine light on. My best guess right now is to find out where cell antenna is and bridge it with a 50-ohm resistor. (But that is not necessarily bulletproof either as dummy loads can still transmit, just with greatly reduced output.) I have read that car manufacturers make these systems intentionally hard to disable because each one is a perpetual stream of income for them for as long as the car is on the road: They sell the data to data brokers who then re-sell it to insurers and various other customer profiling companies. According to my Vehicle Privacy Support (https://vehicleprivacyreport.com https://vehicleprivacyreport.com), LexisNexis is the data broker that Toyota uses. I submitted Consumer Disclosure Report with them and 6 weeks later, a snail-mail letter arrived saying they were not going to disclose any of my information to me.
giantg2 1y ago
I generally agree. I have an 8 year old work trim truck that doesn't have much tech in it. Im dreading the day I'll need to replace it. Hopefully I'll get another decade or so out of it.
ourmandave 1y ago
Yeah, this. I drove my daughter's 09 Pontiac Vibe and trying to flip the mirror, accidentally hit OnStar and they answered, even though she never had a subscription. After all the niceties and "no, I hadn't been in an accident", I was afraid to touch the mirror after that.
drweevil 1y ago
BTW, if you want to get a hint at what shenanigans are going on with "your" vehicle, read the privacy policy. That they even have one is itself a sign of the times.
- jrs235 1y ago
  How do those privacy policies work with regards to secondary private vehicle sales/purchases?

jacquesm 1y ago

These are the exact reasons my car is now 28 years old. It's not like I can't afford a new one but I want a vehicle, not a piece of malware on wheels.

pryelluw 1y ago
What do you drive if you do t mind me asking? Fellow older car driver here. I have a 91 Mustang.
sleepyguy 1y ago
2006 Lexus IS350, 2007 Toyota Avalon, 2010 Toyota Venza. My in-laws have a 2000 4Runner that I still need to drive into the ground, but I'm not sure if I will be able to do it since it refuses to die (325k miles). All the vehicles are immaculate and have at least a decade or more left in them. I plan to drive them all, as long as they continue to sell gasoline.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  That 4Runner will be a heirloom. Those things are in ever sense of the word indestructible unless you start plowing into concrete walls or something like that. Just regular use will most likely not kill it as long as there is oil and coolant in it.
- drweevil 1y ago
  I have a 2011 Subaru Forrester. It has 5 on the floor. Once when I pulled up to the post office I took it out of gear and pulled the parking brake. A fellow had pulled up right next to me just then. He asked me "Is that a manual? I thought I heard a parking brake!" I answered in the affirmative. He offered to trade me his Jeep Wagoneer straight up, no questions. I politely declined. I don't know what business car manufacturers think they're in. Finance? Data brokers? Social media? Someone needs to get back to making cars.
jjav 1y ago
> not a piece of malware on wheels Indeed. Aside from price, this is why I will never own a new car, or anything newer than roughly 2015 or so (depends on manufacturer). A car must absolutely not have any internet phone-home spyware connectivity.

0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago

Is that even possible on a modern vehicle? I thought all of the major brands were now selling your location data.

lenerdenator 1y ago
I've heard you can yank a fuse/relay/antenna and avoid it but would like confirmation of that.
- OptionOfT 1y ago
  That used to work. Not anymore. Now that we have embedded SIMs and integrated GPS/Cellular antennas pulling the fuse does a lot more than just disabling sending back data. It also kills a very important safety feature, the one that auto-calls 911/112/999/... when you get into an accident.
- giantg2 1y ago
  At least 10 years ago you could remove the cable/bridge that connected the network board to the rest of the car. I'm not sure thats possible anymore. About 8 years ago you could get a fleet type vehicle that didn't include stuff like OnStar. Not sure thats possible anymore either.
- inahga 1y ago
  2023 Jeep: I was able to remove the cellular modem from the head unit. Disconnecting the antenna was not effective (just reduces the range). See e.g. https://sandsprite.com/blogs/index.php?uid=7&pid=462&year=2019 https://sandsprite.com/blogs/index.php?uid=7&pid=462&year=20...
- bityard 1y ago
  Maybe in some cars, but certainly not all. I have a 2021 Highlander. We have no subscription to anything related to the car itself, but there is definitely a mobile connection sending data back to the mothership every time the car is turned on. I know this, because A) Toyota's manuals/literature say they do this, and B) There's an icon on the "infotainment" screen showing the signal strength. All car manufacturers are extremely vague about what data they are sending, but you can assume it's basically everything: GPS location, speed, engine and maintenance data, control inputs (accelerator, brake, light switches), even seat occupancy. (Yep, mine has seat sensors for that.) I spent several hours researching how to disable this thing and there is very little information on doing so for my exact year/model. What little info I did find says there's no easy and simple way. The fuse for it powers several other things. There is a module you can disconnect somewhere deep in the dash, but you lose other functionality like Bluetooth. And the car will probably constantly warn you about a failed module and turn your check engine light on. My best guess right now is to find out where cell antenna is and bridge it with a 50-ohm resistor. (But that is not necessarily bulletproof either as dummy loads can still transmit, just with greatly reduced output.) I have read that car manufacturers make these systems intentionally hard to disable because each one is a perpetual stream of income for them for as long as the car is on the road: They sell the data to data brokers who then re-sell it to insurers and various other customer profiling companies. According to my Vehicle Privacy Support (https://vehicleprivacyreport.com https://vehicleprivacyreport.com), LexisNexis is the data broker that Toyota uses. I submitted Consumer Disclosure Report with them and 6 weeks later, a snail-mail letter arrived saying they were not going to disclose any of my information to me.

giantg2 1y ago

I generally agree. I have an 8 year old work trim truck that doesn't have much tech in it. Im dreading the day I'll need to replace it. Hopefully I'll get another decade or so out of it.

ourmandave 1y ago

Yeah, this. I drove my daughter's 09 Pontiac Vibe and trying to flip the mirror, accidentally hit OnStar and they answered, even though she never had a subscription. After all the niceties and "no, I hadn't been in an accident", I was afraid to touch the mirror after that.

drweevil 1y ago

BTW, if you want to get a hint at what shenanigans are going on with "your" vehicle, read the privacy policy. That they even have one is itself a sign of the times.

jrs235 1y ago
How do those privacy policies work with regards to secondary private vehicle sales/purchases?