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> Engadget frames Israel’s surveillance of Palestinian telecommunications as extraordinary, but such practices are common in national security contexts It's st

> Engadget frames Israel’s surveillance of Palestinian telecommunications as extraordinary, but such practices are common in national security contexts It's still bad > Israel faces real and ongoing threats from groups such as Hamas Israel helped put Hamas in power, FWIW. Maybe instead of stealing Palestians' land, Israel should give them citizenship and voting rights. It's the moral thing to do. > Criticism of Israeli policy should account for its security context Criticism of Israeli policy should account for their colonialism and war crimes. It's a moral issue. The rest be damned.

spwa4 1y ago
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- laimewhisps 1y ago
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- nielsbot 1y ago
  Your comment is all paranoia and tired Habara tropes. > Your demand is nothing short of the end of Israel Israel as an apartheid state. > you're asking millions of people to live under constant physcial threat And yes that's exactly what Israel (with US support) has done to Gaza and the West Bank. > the end of self-determination of a large population that cannot even run away This is not a request for Israelis to run away or leave. > to say nothing of the cost Sure, fall back to "practical issues" > On top of that, the muslims of the middle east have been eradicating minorities, and a lot of them, since the end of WW1 Smear an entire religion now. Also, "we can commit war crimes and steal land because they would do that same". Fear not based in reality. > become a minority without self determination is nothing short of asking them to die Sorry but being a minority in a democracy is not a death sentence. That's absolute racist hysteria. > Palestine, if truly left to itself, would face immediate economic collapse They must be subject to occupation, control, starvation and murderous war crimes because they'd be poor on their own! Never mind that the reason for Gaza's poverty is the Israeli embargo. Nothing gets in our out of Gaza without Israel's permission. We haven't even started on the cruelty and dispossession happening illegally, with the government's support, in the West Bank.
nelox 1y ago
Israel did not “put Hamas in power.” Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. These were monitored by international observers, including the Carter Center, who confirmed the vote was largely fair: https://cartercenter.org/news/pr/palestine_013006.html https://cartercenter.org/news/pr/palestine_013006.html. The idea that Israel created Hamas is a misrepresentation of historic tactical decisions in the 1980s, when Israel tolerated some Islamist activity as a counterweight to the PLO. That is not the same as “putting Hamas in power,” and certainly not a reason to ignore Hamas’s current actions. As for land and citizenship, roughly 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, including Muslims and Christians, with full voting rights. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens because they are governed by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas respectively, per the Oslo Accords. Israel cannot unilaterally give them citizenship without dismantling those agreements, which Palestinians also signed. See: https://ecf.org.il/issues/issue/153 https://ecf.org.il/issues/issue/153. Calling the situation “colonialism” ignores the fact that both sides claim historic ties to the land and have engaged in multiple rounds of negotiations. That includes offers of statehood rejected by Palestinian leadership, notably in 2000 and 2008. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/magazine/28israel-t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/magazine/28israel-t.html. Security and morality are not mutually exclusive. Both sides deserve accountability and safety.
- spwa4 1y ago
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      Not that I'd ever suggest someone take wikipedia as their only source, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Musl... And, to show you that hamas (and other muslim terror orgs AND orthodox islamic institutes that are "not" terrorists) want to bring this back: https://icct.nl/publication/isis-and-their-use-slavery https://icct.nl/publication/isis-and-their-use-slavery And even in this conflict where you're defending the agressors: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpw5v077nyjo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpw5v077nyjo https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-noa-argamani-idf-spotters-were-held-as-slaves-in-a-luxury-villa-in-gaza-then-taken-into-tunnels https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-noa-argama...

spwa4 1y ago

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laimewhisps 1y ago
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nielsbot 1y ago
Your comment is all paranoia and tired Habara tropes. > Your demand is nothing short of the end of Israel Israel as an apartheid state. > you're asking millions of people to live under constant physcial threat And yes that's exactly what Israel (with US support) has done to Gaza and the West Bank. > the end of self-determination of a large population that cannot even run away This is not a request for Israelis to run away or leave. > to say nothing of the cost Sure, fall back to "practical issues" > On top of that, the muslims of the middle east have been eradicating minorities, and a lot of them, since the end of WW1 Smear an entire religion now. Also, "we can commit war crimes and steal land because they would do that same". Fear not based in reality. > become a minority without self determination is nothing short of asking them to die Sorry but being a minority in a democracy is not a death sentence. That's absolute racist hysteria. > Palestine, if truly left to itself, would face immediate economic collapse They must be subject to occupation, control, starvation and murderous war crimes because they'd be poor on their own! Never mind that the reason for Gaza's poverty is the Israeli embargo. Nothing gets in our out of Gaza without Israel's permission. We haven't even started on the cruelty and dispossession happening illegally, with the government's support, in the West Bank.

nelox 1y ago

Israel did not “put Hamas in power.” Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. These were monitored by international observers, including the Carter Center, who confirmed the vote was largely fair: https://cartercenter.org/news/pr/palestine_013006.html https://cartercenter.org/news/pr/palestine_013006.html. The idea that Israel created Hamas is a misrepresentation of historic tactical decisions in the 1980s, when Israel tolerated some Islamist activity as a counterweight to the PLO. That is not the same as “putting Hamas in power,” and certainly not a reason to ignore Hamas’s current actions. As for land and citizenship, roughly 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, including Muslims and Christians, with full voting rights. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens because they are governed by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas respectively, per the Oslo Accords. Israel cannot unilaterally give them citizenship without dismantling those agreements, which Palestinians also signed. See: https://ecf.org.il/issues/issue/153 https://ecf.org.il/issues/issue/153. Calling the situation “colonialism” ignores the fact that both sides claim historic ties to the land and have engaged in multiple rounds of negotiations. That includes offers of statehood rejected by Palestinian leadership, notably in 2000 and 2008. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/magazine/28israel-t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/magazine/28israel-t.html. Security and morality are not mutually exclusive. Both sides deserve accountability and safety.

spwa4 1y ago
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- ath3nd 1y ago
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    Not that I'd ever suggest someone take wikipedia as their only source, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Musl... And, to show you that hamas (and other muslim terror orgs AND orthodox islamic institutes that are "not" terrorists) want to bring this back: https://icct.nl/publication/isis-and-their-use-slavery https://icct.nl/publication/isis-and-their-use-slavery And even in this conflict where you're defending the agressors: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpw5v077nyjo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpw5v077nyjo https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-noa-argamani-idf-spotters-were-held-as-slaves-in-a-luxury-villa-in-gaza-then-taken-into-tunnels https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-noa-argama...