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except china, china for some reason always unite despite many civil war and unrest like imagine at some point roman empire and china is co-exist together and 2

except china, china for some reason always unite despite many civil war and unrest like imagine at some point roman empire and china is co-exist together and 2000 years later only 1 survive

didibus 1y ago
It's true, China went through a ton of unification -> division -> reunification phases in history. There's even a famous quote for this: "what is long divided must unite, what is long united must divide" I think one possible reason is that the Qin Dynasty really managed to assimilate everyone into the same shared values, religion, language, writing, and so on. Other empires didn't succeed to that level, and the people in them always had strong differences, language, values, religion, beliefs, writing, philosophy, and so on.
- jjmarr 1y ago
  In Western tradition, an "empire" is definitionally unassimilated in that there are multiple groups/territories ruled centrally from a metropole. A state would no longer be an empire once it assimilates disparate territories.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    No, there is an alternative (and far, far more traditional) definition in which an emperor outranks a king, which is how China is termed an "empire".
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > I think one possible reason is that the Qin Dynasty really managed to assimilate everyone into the same shared values, religion, language, writing, and so on. Other empires didn't succeed to that level Qin conquered the other Chinese states and the ensuing dynasty flamed out immediately. The work of creating an empire was done by the following Han dynasty. > There's even a famous quote for this: "what is long divided must unite, what is long united must divide" 分久必合，合久必分 https://ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1 https://ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1 Often given as "the empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide", but your translation is much closer to the text, which doesn't mention empires except in that it follows this statement ["They say that across the course of history, what has long been divided must unite, and what has long been united must divide"] with a discussion of Chinese governments schisming and unifying.
  - didibus 1y ago
    I'm not an historian or even did any extensive research on this. I thought that the Qin dynasty established a ton of standards super aggressively and also worked very fast to erase and assimilate. Even if it didn't last long, it kind of set the pattern.
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      It lasted for fourteen years, with a sharp drop in stability for the last three of those. No, that's not enough time to do cultural transformation. The shared values, religion, language, and writing preexisted the Qin. So much was shared that the state of Qin considered it a problem - Qin propaganda (before the conquest) tended to emphasize how different they were from the other Chinese states.
andsoitis 1y ago
in the grand scheme of humanity, do you consider a single civilization largely persisting in key aspects over 2000 years a feature? Or a bug?
- msgodel 1y ago
  If it's my civilization it's a feature, if it's your civilization it's a bug. It sounds like a joke but that is exactly how it works and many people have forgotten it.
joeblubaugh 1y ago
Chinese continuity is overstated for the purposes of modern nation-building. The Qing and Ming are as different from each other and modern CCP China as the kingdom of Prussia is from modern Germany.
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  That past is always a different country, but actually I'm kind of disappointed that Qing and Ming are not more different than Prussia is from modern Germany.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  but they still chinnese???? "but sorry you are wrong, its is mongolian goverment" nerd noise Yeah but the empire is still in fact china, like you cant change that 1. does they identified some sort of "chinnese" ???: Yeah 2. does they still speak some form of "chinnese language": Yeah "buttt it iss different eeeerrr" before you talking about whats different, BRO ITS 2000 YEARS, what do you expect ???? like do you expecting people not changing anything for two millenia????? like cmon bruh, use your critical thinking "china proper" as whole is always referring to "whole region" not just this empire or dynasty or anything
  - dpassens 1y ago
    Please do us all a favour and learn to communicate properly.
    - tonyhart7 1y ago
      sorry that you aren't get it if you are not fluent native but you can ignore the satirical part and focus at bullet point also: https://web.archive.org/web/20250102025407/https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20250102025407/https://nces.ed.g...
ajross 1y ago
China literally fought the bloodiest civil war of the 20th century! It's technically still going on, even. One of the sides makes a lot of good chips, maybe you've heard of them.
- lern_too_spel 1y ago
  That's a bit of an oversimplification. The residents of Taiwan had been Japanese citizens since the end of the 19th century and did not participate in the Chinese Civil War. Chang Kai-Shek moved his supporters to the island in 1949 based on the Allies' promise of the return of Taiwan to the RoC and then quickly declared martial law, which lasted for four decades. The current ruling party in Taiwan does not consider itself a rightful ruler of mainland China and instead sees itself as the government of a sovereign Taiwan.
  - ajross 1y ago
    And that sounds more like apologia than elaboration. Needless to say the PRC itself does not agree with the DPP's assessment of itself as the government of a sovereign Taiwan. The point was a glib response to an assertion that China is somehow especially unified as a matter of policy or politics. And, yeah, no; no it is not. At all.
    - lern_too_spel 1y ago
      I mean to say that it's incorrect to claim that the Chinese civil war is ongoing and even more incorrect to say that one side of it does a good job manufacturing chips. The part of the KMT that fled to Taiwan constitutes a minority of Taiwan's population and is not even politically dominant any more, and the rest were Japanese citizens who then became Taiwanese citizens, never having fought in a civil war.
      - ajross 1y ago
        > I mean to say that it's incorrect to claim that the Chinese civil war is ongoing What I said was that the Chinese civil war is technically ongoing, as evidence for deep and persistent Chinese political disunity, and I stand by that 100%. You're arguing with someone else, I think. And in particular you seem to be arguing from the perspective of the PRC with regard to Taiwanese independence, which I find distasteful.

except china, china for some reason always unite despite many civil war and unrest like imagine at some point roman empire and china is co-exist together and 2000 years later only 1 survive

didibus 1y ago

It's true, China went through a ton of unification -> division -> reunification phases in history. There's even a famous quote for this: "what is long divided must unite, what is long united must divide" I think one possible reason is that the Qin Dynasty really managed to assimilate everyone into the same shared values, religion, language, writing, and so on. Other empires didn't succeed to that level, and the people in them always had strong differences, language, values, religion, beliefs, writing, philosophy, and so on.

jjmarr 1y ago
In Western tradition, an "empire" is definitionally unassimilated in that there are multiple groups/territories ruled centrally from a metropole. A state would no longer be an empire once it assimilates disparate territories.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  No, there is an alternative (and far, far more traditional) definition in which an emperor outranks a king, which is how China is termed an "empire".
thaumasiotes 1y ago
> I think one possible reason is that the Qin Dynasty really managed to assimilate everyone into the same shared values, religion, language, writing, and so on. Other empires didn't succeed to that level Qin conquered the other Chinese states and the ensuing dynasty flamed out immediately. The work of creating an empire was done by the following Han dynasty. > There's even a famous quote for this: "what is long divided must unite, what is long united must divide" 分久必合，合久必分 https://ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1 https://ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1 Often given as "the empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide", but your translation is much closer to the text, which doesn't mention empires except in that it follows this statement ["They say that across the course of history, what has long been divided must unite, and what has long been united must divide"] with a discussion of Chinese governments schisming and unifying.
- didibus 1y ago
  I'm not an historian or even did any extensive research on this. I thought that the Qin dynasty established a ton of standards super aggressively and also worked very fast to erase and assimilate. Even if it didn't last long, it kind of set the pattern.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    It lasted for fourteen years, with a sharp drop in stability for the last three of those. No, that's not enough time to do cultural transformation. The shared values, religion, language, and writing preexisted the Qin. So much was shared that the state of Qin considered it a problem - Qin propaganda (before the conquest) tended to emphasize how different they were from the other Chinese states.

andsoitis 1y ago

in the grand scheme of humanity, do you consider a single civilization largely persisting in key aspects over 2000 years a feature? Or a bug?

msgodel 1y ago
If it's my civilization it's a feature, if it's your civilization it's a bug. It sounds like a joke but that is exactly how it works and many people have forgotten it.

joeblubaugh 1y ago

Chinese continuity is overstated for the purposes of modern nation-building. The Qing and Ming are as different from each other and modern CCP China as the kingdom of Prussia is from modern Germany.

actionfromafar 1y ago
That past is always a different country, but actually I'm kind of disappointed that Qing and Ming are not more different than Prussia is from modern Germany.
tonyhart7 1y ago
but they still chinnese???? "but sorry you are wrong, its is mongolian goverment" nerd noise Yeah but the empire is still in fact china, like you cant change that 1. does they identified some sort of "chinnese" ???: Yeah 2. does they still speak some form of "chinnese language": Yeah "buttt it iss different eeeerrr" before you talking about whats different, BRO ITS 2000 YEARS, what do you expect ???? like do you expecting people not changing anything for two millenia????? like cmon bruh, use your critical thinking "china proper" as whole is always referring to "whole region" not just this empire or dynasty or anything
- dpassens 1y ago
  Please do us all a favour and learn to communicate properly.
  - tonyhart7 1y ago
    sorry that you aren't get it if you are not fluent native but you can ignore the satirical part and focus at bullet point also: https://web.archive.org/web/20250102025407/https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20250102025407/https://nces.ed.g...

ajross 1y ago

China literally fought the bloodiest civil war of the 20th century! It's technically still going on, even. One of the sides makes a lot of good chips, maybe you've heard of them.

lern_too_spel 1y ago
That's a bit of an oversimplification. The residents of Taiwan had been Japanese citizens since the end of the 19th century and did not participate in the Chinese Civil War. Chang Kai-Shek moved his supporters to the island in 1949 based on the Allies' promise of the return of Taiwan to the RoC and then quickly declared martial law, which lasted for four decades. The current ruling party in Taiwan does not consider itself a rightful ruler of mainland China and instead sees itself as the government of a sovereign Taiwan.
- ajross 1y ago
  And that sounds more like apologia than elaboration. Needless to say the PRC itself does not agree with the DPP's assessment of itself as the government of a sovereign Taiwan. The point was a glib response to an assertion that China is somehow especially unified as a matter of policy or politics. And, yeah, no; no it is not. At all.
  - lern_too_spel 1y ago
    I mean to say that it's incorrect to claim that the Chinese civil war is ongoing and even more incorrect to say that one side of it does a good job manufacturing chips. The part of the KMT that fled to Taiwan constitutes a minority of Taiwan's population and is not even politically dominant any more, and the rest were Japanese citizens who then became Taiwanese citizens, never having fought in a civil war.
    - ajross 1y ago
      > I mean to say that it's incorrect to claim that the Chinese civil war is ongoing What I said was that the Chinese civil war is technically ongoing, as evidence for deep and persistent Chinese political disunity, and I stand by that 100%. You're arguing with someone else, I think. And in particular you seem to be arguing from the perspective of the PRC with regard to Taiwanese independence, which I find distasteful.