4 ms·

I think this is literally just a function of time and exposure oppirtunity and nothing else. An adult studying a language is spending like maybe 1% of the time

I think this is literally just a function of time and exposure oppirtunity and nothing else. An adult studying a language is spending like maybe 1% of the time studying that a child learning a language spends.

mastazi 1y ago
I get your point about time availability. This however doesn't explain why it's common for young adults to learn faster than older adults. Often young adults are even more time constrained than older generations (new family, young kids, possibly less stable job situation, etc.) and yet older adults are usually the ones who have a harder time learning a language (as a "serial" migrant I have experienced this personally). So I don't think that time is the only factor.
School-Cotton 1y ago
No, brain plasticity is real. Even people who move to another country as adults and spend 100% of their time speaking that country’s language almost never learn to speak it with native-level intuition and a native-sounding accent (though they can reach pretty high levels). Children do, without even trying.
- rf15 1y ago
  I feel you are both having very similar views, just your somewhat bad-faith interpretation of their words makes this unnecessarily complicated: the person you are responding to is probably largely talking about those who "don't even try", while you are talking about the thin margins towards perfection.
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    I really can’t understand how you think we’re saying the same thing. He’s saying age doesn’t intrinsically matter and I’m saying it does.
    - Tor3 1y ago
      But you also implied that it's a question of being and adult or not, as if it's a cut-off. It isn't. If you watch people and you know when they started to learn a new language you can see a pretty strong statistical trend (what I've been exposed to is lots of immigrants who came to the country at various ages): The youngest children learn the language relatively quickly, and there's no accent. If they're around 9 or ten they still learn the language quickly, but the accent may remain for several years. And this gradually "worsen", in a way, as they start learning the language at a later age. But there are lots of outliers, both ways. There are a few people I know who learned my language to absolute perfection, 100% native in every possible way, in their late twenties. On the other hand there are also a large majority of people learning my language as mature adults and becoming fluent to the extent that nobody really cares about accent or way of speech - they're not sounding "native", but it's perfectly fine and doesn't matter. People stop noticing, it's just part of who they are. Though when you get to around sixty it's definitely harder, but still doable. And it varies between people and it matters a lot what language you're trying to learn.
      - School-Cotton 1y ago
        > But you also implied that it's a question of being and adult or not, as if it's a cut-off. It isn't. No I didn't. I never said anywhere that it's a sharp cutoff rather than a sliding scale. If I say Canada is further north than Brazil, it doesn't mean that latitude isn't a continuous spectrum.
        Tor3 1y ago
        You may have meant it like you say but in fact you did write "..Even people who move to another country as adults and spend 100% of their time speaking that country’s language almost never learn to speak it with native-level intuition and a native-sounding accent (though they can reach pretty high levels). Children do, without even trying" You simply differed between adults and children. If you meant "it gets more and more difficult the farther you move from childhood".. well fine, but you didn't write the equivalent of 'further north than Brazil' so you should expect to get questioned about that.
  - throwaway284927 1y ago
    To me, they both seem to be talking about what explains the perceived difference in effectiveness and efficiency between children and adults when they learn a new language. The first comment seems to be arguing that the difference is "literally just a function of time and exposure opportunity and nothing else" (explicitly ruling out a significant effect related to a difference in brain plasticity related to age), while the comment you're answering to argues that brain plasticity, even under the same conditions of time and exposure opportunity, makes a significant difference.

mastazi 1y ago

I get your point about time availability. This however doesn't explain why it's common for young adults to learn faster than older adults. Often young adults are even more time constrained than older generations (new family, young kids, possibly less stable job situation, etc.) and yet older adults are usually the ones who have a harder time learning a language (as a "serial" migrant I have experienced this personally). So I don't think that time is the only factor.

School-Cotton 1y ago

No, brain plasticity is real. Even people who move to another country as adults and spend 100% of their time speaking that country’s language almost never learn to speak it with native-level intuition and a native-sounding accent (though they can reach pretty high levels). Children do, without even trying.

rf15 1y ago
I feel you are both having very similar views, just your somewhat bad-faith interpretation of their words makes this unnecessarily complicated: the person you are responding to is probably largely talking about those who "don't even try", while you are talking about the thin margins towards perfection.
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  I really can’t understand how you think we’re saying the same thing. He’s saying age doesn’t intrinsically matter and I’m saying it does.
  - Tor3 1y ago
    But you also implied that it's a question of being and adult or not, as if it's a cut-off. It isn't. If you watch people and you know when they started to learn a new language you can see a pretty strong statistical trend (what I've been exposed to is lots of immigrants who came to the country at various ages): The youngest children learn the language relatively quickly, and there's no accent. If they're around 9 or ten they still learn the language quickly, but the accent may remain for several years. And this gradually "worsen", in a way, as they start learning the language at a later age. But there are lots of outliers, both ways. There are a few people I know who learned my language to absolute perfection, 100% native in every possible way, in their late twenties. On the other hand there are also a large majority of people learning my language as mature adults and becoming fluent to the extent that nobody really cares about accent or way of speech - they're not sounding "native", but it's perfectly fine and doesn't matter. People stop noticing, it's just part of who they are. Though when you get to around sixty it's definitely harder, but still doable. And it varies between people and it matters a lot what language you're trying to learn.
    - School-Cotton 1y ago
      > But you also implied that it's a question of being and adult or not, as if it's a cut-off. It isn't. No I didn't. I never said anywhere that it's a sharp cutoff rather than a sliding scale. If I say Canada is further north than Brazil, it doesn't mean that latitude isn't a continuous spectrum.
      - Tor3 1y ago
        You may have meant it like you say but in fact you did write "..Even people who move to another country as adults and spend 100% of their time speaking that country’s language almost never learn to speak it with native-level intuition and a native-sounding accent (though they can reach pretty high levels). Children do, without even trying" You simply differed between adults and children. If you meant "it gets more and more difficult the farther you move from childhood".. well fine, but you didn't write the equivalent of 'further north than Brazil' so you should expect to get questioned about that.
- throwaway284927 1y ago
  To me, they both seem to be talking about what explains the perceived difference in effectiveness and efficiency between children and adults when they learn a new language. The first comment seems to be arguing that the difference is "literally just a function of time and exposure opportunity and nothing else" (explicitly ruling out a significant effect related to a difference in brain plasticity related to age), while the comment you're answering to argues that brain plasticity, even under the same conditions of time and exposure opportunity, makes a significant difference.