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If you can't even prove you're an American by providing basic identification, you shouldn't be allowed vote. Democracy requires a system of voting that is trust

If you can't even prove you're an American by providing basic identification, you shouldn't be allowed vote. Democracy requires a system of voting that is trustworthy. Allowing people to vote based on who they say they are is not conducive to a trustworthy election.

tastyface 1y ago
Fine. First hand out IDs to every single person, for free and without forcing them to spend hours on obscure bureaucratic processes, then mandate voter ID when there's close to 100% coverage. It's the only way to be fair. Otherwise, the only thing you're doing is disenfranchising the most vulnerable while changing almost nothing about election security in practice. (Studies have repeatedly found that voter fraud is practically nonexistent.)
neaden 1y ago
But it works fine. There have been extensive efforts to find people voting illegally and it turns up a small handful across the entire country, and many of those are things like returning a recently dead persons mail in ballot that voter ID wouldn't even help with. The fact is that all the evidence says an incredibly small number of people vote who are not legally eligible to do so, and only a small proportion of those are non-citizen immigrants.
- jimbo808 1y ago
  It doesn't work if a large portion of the country believes that this issue is causing voter fraud. It doesn't have to be really happening, it just has to be possible and perceived to be happening. We can easily fix that.
  - tastyface 1y ago
    Here's the way I see it: 1. Right-wing think tanks spend a bunch of time workshopping ways to gain a few extra % points in elections. Turns out that poor voters without ID vote Democrat more often than not. 2. Those think tanks then disseminate FUD to Fox news and similar outlets that there's widespread voter fraud, illegals voting, etc.!!! 3. Some people get spooked and start losing faith in elections. 4. Voter ID laws pass. Swaths of poor people (majority Democrats) lose the ability to vote and aren't able to spend hours getting IDs. Meanwhile, entrenched powers reduce funding and opening times for offices that can assist with this. 5. Single-party rule gets a bit more entrenched in this country. The way to address lies and propaganda isn't to just give in to those lies. Any voter ID law must come with a precondition that *everyone* who wants an ID can easily get one, preferably by mail and with about 15 minutes of effort. (Plus accommodations for people who are homeless, lack a birth certificate, etc.) Without such a precondition, the true purpose of these efforts is obvious.
  - plorkyeran 1y ago
    No, it doesn’t actually need to be possible for it to be perceived as happening when you have an organized campaign dedicated to convince people it’s happening.
  - neaden 1y ago
    That doesn't make any sense to me. If a lot of people believe a lie you don't start acting like the lie is true, you teach them the truth. If one of my neighbors becomes worried tigers are going to attack and eat him I'm not going to help him build a giant tiger proof fence around his house.
fzeroracer 1y ago
The thing is, if you think about this for even two seconds you realize how hard it is to actually commit voting fraud. That's why most of the known fraud occurs not by individuals but by intermediaries 'losing' votes. If I say I'm John Doe at James Lane then you can trivially verify this in multiple ways. You can check the prior voting records, you can check the death records, you can check property information. If another person comes by and says they're John Doe at James Lane then you can send mail to said address asking them to verify their identity / vote.
- jimbo808 1y ago
  It doesn't matter if you commit voting fraud. It matters that people are aware of the fact that voter identity is not verified. It undermines peoples' trust in the election process, and in democracy overall.
  - fzeroracer 1y ago
    I just explained to you how voter identity is verified.
triceratops 1y ago
So why aren't all these voter ID bills accompanied by lots of funding for photo ID offices? Election security is important. You can get perfectly secure elections by assuming no one is a citizen and denying everyone. But no one wants that. So do it right.

tastyface 1y ago

Fine. First hand out IDs to every single person, for free and without forcing them to spend hours on obscure bureaucratic processes, then mandate voter ID when there's close to 100% coverage. It's the only way to be fair. Otherwise, the only thing you're doing is disenfranchising the most vulnerable while changing almost nothing about election security in practice. (Studies have repeatedly found that voter fraud is practically nonexistent.)

neaden 1y ago

But it works fine. There have been extensive efforts to find people voting illegally and it turns up a small handful across the entire country, and many of those are things like returning a recently dead persons mail in ballot that voter ID wouldn't even help with. The fact is that all the evidence says an incredibly small number of people vote who are not legally eligible to do so, and only a small proportion of those are non-citizen immigrants.

jimbo808 1y ago
It doesn't work if a large portion of the country believes that this issue is causing voter fraud. It doesn't have to be really happening, it just has to be possible and perceived to be happening. We can easily fix that.
- tastyface 1y ago
  Here's the way I see it: 1. Right-wing think tanks spend a bunch of time workshopping ways to gain a few extra % points in elections. Turns out that poor voters without ID vote Democrat more often than not. 2. Those think tanks then disseminate FUD to Fox news and similar outlets that there's widespread voter fraud, illegals voting, etc.!!! 3. Some people get spooked and start losing faith in elections. 4. Voter ID laws pass. Swaths of poor people (majority Democrats) lose the ability to vote and aren't able to spend hours getting IDs. Meanwhile, entrenched powers reduce funding and opening times for offices that can assist with this. 5. Single-party rule gets a bit more entrenched in this country. The way to address lies and propaganda isn't to just give in to those lies. Any voter ID law must come with a precondition that *everyone* who wants an ID can easily get one, preferably by mail and with about 15 minutes of effort. (Plus accommodations for people who are homeless, lack a birth certificate, etc.) Without such a precondition, the true purpose of these efforts is obvious.
- plorkyeran 1y ago
  No, it doesn’t actually need to be possible for it to be perceived as happening when you have an organized campaign dedicated to convince people it’s happening.
- neaden 1y ago
  That doesn't make any sense to me. If a lot of people believe a lie you don't start acting like the lie is true, you teach them the truth. If one of my neighbors becomes worried tigers are going to attack and eat him I'm not going to help him build a giant tiger proof fence around his house.

fzeroracer 1y ago

The thing is, if you think about this for even two seconds you realize how hard it is to actually commit voting fraud. That's why most of the known fraud occurs not by individuals but by intermediaries 'losing' votes. If I say I'm John Doe at James Lane then you can trivially verify this in multiple ways. You can check the prior voting records, you can check the death records, you can check property information. If another person comes by and says they're John Doe at James Lane then you can send mail to said address asking them to verify their identity / vote.

jimbo808 1y ago
It doesn't matter if you commit voting fraud. It matters that people are aware of the fact that voter identity is not verified. It undermines peoples' trust in the election process, and in democracy overall.
- fzeroracer 1y ago
  I just explained to you how voter identity is verified.

triceratops 1y ago

So why aren't all these voter ID bills accompanied by lots of funding for photo ID offices? Election security is important. You can get perfectly secure elections by assuming no one is a citizen and denying everyone. But no one wants that. So do it right.